LYDIA REID wrote:
Clare wrote:
Wow, I didn't realise that this was a "class" thing created by the "under-classes" who are simply jealous of the McCanns and are being mean to them when all they did was leave three children of under four alone in an unlocked apartment while they went out.

Personally I didn't call it along class lines. I just saw two very selfish, irresponsible parents whose daughter had actually questioned their behaviour herself on the morning of the very day they repeated the pattern and left her alone with her siblings, yet again! "Where were you when we were crying last night?"

Lydia, there has been knowledge of Portugal's role in international paedophile rings for some time. But even if that knowledge didn't exist it is surely the most basic rule of good child care not to go out and leave children alone. To excuse that horrifies me. I accept some newspapers crossed lines but ultimately the McCann's ARE responsible and I cannot find any sympathy for them. We aren't talking about a situation where they had to rush out urgently for some reason. They went out to dinner and by all accounts this seems to have been the regular pattern. They chose not to use the babysitting service available also. I think they were grossly negligent. I think most people do.

Well I really did not know about Portugal and members of my family went to Portugal the year before Maddie went missing and although like me they would not leave the children I think they would have had second thoughts about going just because careful as you are you cannot have your eyes on them every second. Ours were old enough (10 and 12) for instance to go to kids clubs.

I have a feeling we must agree to disagree on the blame issue. I also feel that even if I were to blame them absolutely they and Maddie have paid the ultimate price for anything they have done wrong.

They will spend their whole lives in torture unless they get her back.

If they got her back tomorrow their lives will never be the same again.

All they can do now is pray for forgiveness and do what they are doing now, spend their lives looking for her, just in case she is still alive.

If they have the same God that I know he will forgive if their request is genuine.

No Lydia, only one person paid the ultimate price and that was Maddie. Maddie was also entirely blameless.

Don't put their grief in the same category as her suffering because it doesn't even come close. She was the helpless wee girl. They were the parents who, it has already been stated, chose not to use a babysitting service and went out and left their three children alone and unprotected. And not just once either, it was the routine.

And if they truly want forgiveness then they are going to have to admit that their neglect of her and her siblings was to blame for what happened to her.

Whether one is aware of what goes on in a foreign country or not the very idea of leaving those children for them to go out to dinner in the evenings is disgraceful, reckless and utterly irresponsible. This is not an "Oh it could happen to anyone." situation. The vast majority of parents would not dream of doing what they did. I repeat, their daughter asked them that very morning, "Why did you not come when we were crying last night?" Out of the mouths of babes eh? Yet STILL they couldn't stay in that evening, or take their children with them. So if they're in torture Lydia its probably because they should be.

Clare, where's your charity? Where do you get the proof that this was the norm?

There is none. The only reason we know that Madeline was crying that morning was because the McCanns told this to the police and they maliciously leaked it to the press to divert attention from their on incompetence. The McCanns were NOT out the previous evening when Madeline was crying. It was a nightmare!

To say that they are not suffering or that their suffering in unimportant or deserved is so cold it really does not sound like you.

It's true that they made a disastrous misjudgement. However, it's not as if they left their kids in a room for hours and went out and got blind drunk. I don't hear the same venom being directed at the Northern Irish couple from last weekend who didn't even have the decency to face the consequences of their action in a family court, but instead ran away home!

The McCanns at least were very close by and went back to the room on a regular basis. I'm not saying that what they did was entirely right, but it wasn't as heinous as you're making out. The restaurant is in the same complex. It's not so different as staying in a hotel and using the dining room while the kids are asleep or would you not do that either?

I rally wish that people would hold their rage for the lowlife who took her once the truth comes out.

Charity Martin? For whom, these two "parents"? Are you serious? When goodness knows what that child is suffering you ask me where is my charity for them?

And, where did you get the "It was a nightmare?" bit. It wasn't a nightmare, it was a question a little girl asked that was clearly connected with her parents being absent at a time when she and her siblings had been distressed.

And NO, NO, NO Martin it is NOT all right to leave children alone like that so stop saying it is. It isn't! I am sick of hearing people playing it down. Parents are urged to keep an eye on young chidren even when they're at home with them. How many die in domestic accidents? So please stop making out that they did nothing wrong.

And I will keep saying they should suffer because it is their fault Madeleine paid the ultimate price. I am SICK of hearing about their suffering. Children are now a target for the many sick people in the world Martin. All the more reason why going out and leaving them alone, especially in a foreign country, is utterly irresponsible.

I would condemn the other couple you mention too Martin for they showed the same blatant disregard for their children's safety as the McCann's. They were just fortunate nothing happened to any of theirs.

Oh and Martin, I have plenty of rage for the "lowlife" who took Madeleine, believe me. But I wish those who defend the irresponsible parents who left her vulnerable to and defenceless against such people would stop making excuses for them.

Clare wrote:
Charity Martin? For whom, these two "parents"? Are you serious? When goodness knows what that child is suffering you ask me where is my charity for them?

And, where did you get the "It was a nightmare?" bit. It wasn't a nightmare, it was a question a little girl asked that was clearly connected with her parents being absent at a time when she and her siblings had been distressed.

And NO, NO, NO Martin it is NOT all right to leave children alone like that so stop saying it is. It isn't! I am sick of hearing people playing it down. Parents are urged to keep an eye on young children even when they're at home with them. How many die in domestic accidents? So please stop making out that they did nothing wrong.

And I will keep saying they should suffer because it is their fault Madeleine paid the ultimate price. I am SICK of hearing about their suffering. Children are now a target for the many sick people in the world Martin. All the more reason why going out and leaving them alone, especially in a foreign country, is utterly irresponsible.

I would condemn the other couple you mention too Martin for they showed the same blatant disregard for their children's safety as the McCann's. They were just fortunate nothing happened to any of theirs.

Claire

one of the reasons I do not judge other people in this situation is that we were not there, for instance with the Irish parents. It seems from another news report that the mother does not drink much and took ill.

Her husband took her to the health centre and left the children in the care of the hotel. They left the health centre to pick up the children and social services had taken them into care.

I am very suspicious of all systems in Portugal and how they would use any British child to make a point. If they had thought these parents were totally incapable through drink do you believe they would have returned the children. Incidentally the health centre in Portugal backed the parents story, it was all there in the records.

A councillor from Ireland who knows this family well confirmed the mum did not drink and that this was a good and normal family.

Could this have been another story set up by portuguese police.

The reason they left so quickly was they were frightened they would seize their children.

In there situation I too would have left.

Is this a case for not allowing yourself to believe all you hear in the press.

Clare wrote:
Charity Martin? For whom, these two "parents"? Are you serious? When goodness knows what that child is suffering you ask me where is my charity for them?

And, where did you get the "It was a nightmare?" bit. It wasn't a nightmare, it was a question a little girl asked that was clearly connected with her parents being absent at a time when she and her siblings had been distressed.

And NO, NO, NO Martin it is NOT all right to leave children alone like that so stop saying it is. It isn't! I am sick of hearing people playing it down. Parents are urged to keep an eye on young children even when they're at home with them. How many die in domestic accidents? So please stop making out that they did nothing wrong.

And I will keep saying they should suffer because it is their fault Madeleine paid the ultimate price. I am SICK of hearing about their suffering. Children are now a target for the many sick people in the world Martin. All the more reason why going out and leaving them alone, especially in a foreign country, is utterly irresponsible.

I would condemn the other couple you mention too Martin for they showed the same blatant disregard for their children's safety as the McCann's. They were just fortunate nothing happened to any of theirs.

Clare

I believe the charity bit comes not from the fact that people do not have an absolute fear and horendious anger at what happened to Maddie, believe me this little girl is the centre of prayers still daily for many people. The Charity bit comes in when you consider that no matter what the situation that happened one year ago it cannot unfortunately be changed.

Don't you think these parents live in torment, don't you believe this mother is praying and asking daily for forgiveness. What they are doing is trying their best, living their lives in the media spotlight, and trying to repair the damage they did. They are trying to make it better for other children, at the same time as trying not to lose hope, and trying to find her.

I do feel some charity for them. I do not and never will trivialise what has happened to that child or what may be happening to her right now. Nor do I think I would do what her parents did, but I am human enough to know that I am not dead yet, and try as hard as I do, to live a good life, how do I know what mistakes I will make before I die.

Clare, as far as I am aware it was not normal practice for the McCanns to leave their children while they go out to enjoy themselves, this apparently was a one off.

I am really surprised at your total lack of sympathy towards the McCanns, I personally can't even begin to imagine what they have been going through, not knowing if their child is alive or dead.

Yes, of course it was their fault, and I am sure that they have said a million times over "If only". If only we didn't go out that night, if only we booked into another resort, if only we didn't go on holiday, and probably many other if only's.

You will probably call me old fashioned when I say that I lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of the evil scum who abducted their lovely daughter. Why is there very little said about these despicable ba....ds?

Portugal, along with Austria and the Czech Republic were the only countries within the EU that didn't feel the need to keep a record of all known paedophiles and child molesters.
That has since changed since Maddies abduction, and now all countries within the EU have to submit a record of those who fall into that catergory, to the European central data-base which is now kept by Europol and Interpol, so at least one can say that some good has developed from this unfortunate incident.

Jamrie wrote:
Clare, as far as I am aware it was not normal practice for the McCanns to leave their children while they go out to enjoy themselves, this apparently was a one off.

I am really surprised at your total lack of sympathy towards the McCanns, I personally can't even begin to imagine what they have been going through, not knowing if their child is alive or dead.

Yes, of course it was their fault, and I am sure that they have said a million times over "If only". If only we didn't go out that night, if only we booked into another resort, if only we didn't go on holiday, and probably many other if only's.

You will probably call me old fashioned when I say that I lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of the evil scum who abducted their lovely daughter. Why is there very little said about these despicable ba....ds?

Portugal, along with Austria and the Czech Republic were the only countries within the EU that didn't feel the need to keep a record of all known paedophiles and child molesters.
That has since changed since Maddies abduction, and now all countries within the EU have to submit a record of those who fall into that catergory, to the European central data-base which is now kept by Europol and Interpol, so at least one can say that some good has developed from this unfortunate incident.

Jamrie

It has been established that it was a regular thing for the adult group to go out for dinner and leave the children in the apartment.

Oh its Portugal's fault now is it? Because they didn't have records that there were paedophiles and child molesters who may be about its their fault that no one told the McCann's it might not be a good idea to leave their three children unprotected, alone and defenceless? God, I've heard it all now!

How DARE you say some GOOD has come from this. How can you say such a thing given that Maddie is the one who paid the price? And to dismiss it as an "unfortunate incident" is absolutely breathtaking also.

There is no reason to say, if only we hadn't gone on holiday, if only we hadn't gone out at night. Nothing stopped them from doing any of those things. But they could have taken their children with them as lots of parents do, in buggies, where they inevitably fall asleep. Asleep they may be, but those parents know their kids are safe, the same as parents who use baby sitting services do.

I have nothing but contempt for those who seek to abduct helpless little children and you will find condemnation of those people everywhere. Yes they are evil, of course they are evil, but all the more reason for parents and adults who have children in their care to be alert, responsible and the true guardians of those children by ensuring they never leave them in a situation that is a dangerous one and a threat to their safety. The McCanns did that. Maddie had to live with the consequences of it.

Good grief, you certainly take things out of context.

No Clare, I didn't mean that Portugal is to blame,how absurd, all that I was doing was following up your post when you said that Portugal is allegedly part of the child abduction network.
That is the reason why I mentioned about the authorities there not keeping records of known paedophiles and child abductors. If they did perhaps they might have been better prepared.
It's no secret that their investigations have been a complete disaster.

Yes, tragic as this case is I will dare to say that because of Maddies abduction, countries are at last beginning to work together and perhaps their efforts will prevent this ever happening again, which in my simplistic mind can only be a good thing.
I find it rather sad that you don't agree.

Jamrie wrote:
Good grief, you certainly take things out of context.

No Clare, I didn't mean that Portugal is to blame,how absurd, all that I was doing was following up your post when you said that Portugal is allegedly part of the child abduction network.
That is the reason why I mentioned about the authorities there not keeping records of known paedophiles and child abductors. If they did perhaps they might have been better prepared.
It's no secret that their investigations have been a complete disaster.

Yes, tragic as this case is I will dare to say that because of Maddies abduction, countries are at last beginning to work together and perhaps their efforts will prevent this ever happening again, which in my simplistic mind can only be a good thing.
I find it rather sad that you don't agree.

And every potential danger to a child is likely to be listed yes? Actually, no, they aren't. There are still unidentified dangers to children everywhere. The vast majority of these monsters indulge in their activities secretly. Countries can only do so much and ultimately parents are the ones I would expect to take no risks whatsoever with their children.

I don't know how I took your remark, that something good has come out this, out of context. Given the very high price Maddie paid I don't think the phrase you chose was a particularly apt one.

Most of all I remain horrified that the people some wish to keep defending are the parents in this situation.

I will leave it at that.

Because as parents we make all kinds of mistakes.. and.. decisions that made sense at the time .. but in hindsight..were disastrous. Such as leaving my kids with my hubby while i went to work... and getting a call to come home... and.. the rabbit was over loved...(because.. he is not as good at judging what the children will do.. so many things to consider..) and.. the time.. my living room got flour puffed...(2 days to clean up that one...in every nook n crannie!)needless to say.. i am very careful how i plan my exits and how my children will be tended with the hubster!!! and the time i went to the pottie.. and my toddler wandered out...and...made a sugar beach in my kitchen...(within seconds)
(I am no more perfect..) Lord help us! Forgive as He forgave us!!! Life is so unpredictable! Its what keeps our eyes glued to the road... for what jumps out in the middle of the night.. or the curve in the road!
Who knows the motivation.. but they are forever going to live with this mistake.. it will never leave them. No amount of jail will touch what they are feelin inside their hearts. The brokeness.. and the what ifs.. The hole in their heart.. the... not knowing.. Thats the worst part. Whatever happened to their little girl... they are living with a LIVING hell. The kind that eats you up from the inside out. Its the conseqence of their actions as a parent.. Jail wont touch their mind. They will be dealing with it the best they can.. and forever be looking.. forever be replaying those moments... forever be seeing reminders that jog up memories of their little ones.. such as seeing another person's child.. or a favorite food she ate.. a flower that she liked.. a song will play.. children etch their ways into our hearts.. and those moments are locked in.. and... they are going to be locked into a human heart jailcell with those memories.. a mental torture.

Yes.. it was stupid. But, I think they understand that. They can no longer go back and redo.. hit replay.. make aright.. Im sure they wish they could 1000 times a day, everyday for the rest of their lives.

I remember a wreck where the gal killed her best friends... and.. she lived. The mental torture is.. a little bigger than you or I could do with our words...or with prisons.. It completely changes a person.. its the life changing moment that stops a person in their tracks...the defining moment. Unfortunately.. sacrifices are made before eyes are really opened up.
Would your eyes not be open to the danger of trains and cars had not a person you knew died to them... A deeper connection to it.. than had it been a stranger.. sort of like the invincibility factor. Some of us.. feel THAT safe.. and would never consider anything happening to us such as that.. 'not in my town...' 'never imagined it ever happening here'...

Not that I condone what they did... but.. I have felt those feelings before.. of feeling safe enough.. on a scale of 1-10 in certain environments to give up your guard for a few moments.. as when your children have imaginary borders.. and you begin to give them the trust factor... like when you are pumping gas... and debating whether you can leave them or not in the car..(just an example) There are many a moments.. Letting them cross the road.. Letting them out of your sights...
My three year old constantly tries to test my boundaries.. she wants independence she wants her own way.. she wants to do HER thing.. HER way. There are still some trust factors with her and HER capabilities as a child compared to my son.. at that age.. She has been pretty good about staying home and not wandering off but, as my other daughter has taught me.. there will be a day.. when she will simply walk away and go as far as she can... I did it. I did it in the care of my babysitter.. HER BACK WAS TURNED and i walked all the way home.. at three or four. I wanted to change my clothes after I had an pottie accident. Thankfully I lived to tell the story.. even through the beating I got later...


It wasnt okay. But, worrying about it wont change what happened. And what happened to her or where she is.. You can no more control that as they can.. and.. that will be determined in a later date.. and the parties will be judged. Lots of missing children get taken each day. Even in their own homes! There is definitely sickness.. and.. its unfortunate. Life is very fragile. And it teaches me.. to rethink and tighten up that rope a bit..Unfortunately..at a cost. But also.. you cannot live and define yourself as living in the lockroom. Somewhere you have to have a balance..and that is what is so foggy.

Im sure public retribution hasnt been easy either.

What happened to Maddie.. is very sad and.. I pray that she is safe. Until we know for sure.. I will always remain hopeful.

Jaimekens

I think the way you write is lovely when you are talking about your children.

As for the other subject yes I know about forgiveness, really I do, but these two really are something else. I read just this morning that they have only got through this last year by "not blaming each other".

Stuff happens I know even when you're at home with kids. That's what makes their decision to leave three of them under three on their own all the more incredible to me. That's when the "Its all very well with hindsight" argument infuriates me. It doesn't take hindsight to know that children of that age shouldn't have been left by themselves. And then they have the gall to say they've coped by not blaming themselves! In all honesty I think this alone is what has turned so many people against the McCann's Jaimekens. I think had they taken FULL responsibility from the beginning people would have viewed them in an entirely different way.

Madeleine McCann paid the ultimate price. I think about her still and I wonder, "Has someone taken you to love as their child?" and of all the possibilities I hope that's what has happened. For all the other possibilities are too horrendous to contemplate.

Clare wrote:
Jaimekens

I think the way you write is lovely when you are talking about your children.

As for the other subject yes I know about forgiveness, really I do, but these two really are something else. I read just this morning that they have only got through this last year by "not blaming each other".

Stuff happens I know even when you're at home with kids. That's what makes their decision to leave three of them under three on their own all the more incredible to me. That's when the "Its all very well with hindsight" argument infuriates me. It doesn't take hindsight to know that children of that age shouldn't have been left by themselves. And then they have the gall to say they've coped by not blaming themselves! In all honesty I think this alone is what has turned so many people against the McCann's Jaimekens. I think had they taken FULL responsibility from the beginning people would have viewed them in an entirely different way.

Madeleine McCann paid the ultimate price. I think about her still and I wonder, "Has someone taken you to love as their child?" and of all the possibilities I hope that's what has happened. For all the other possibilities are too horrendous to contemplate.

Personally I think if more people put the same effort into finding Maddie as they do hating the McCanns she may be found by now.

It is the only reason I contribute to the discussions because to keep it in the media for whatever reason, to keep people talking for any reason, may very well find her.

It is all that is left that matters.

Lydia, I have not at any time said I hate the McCann's. Never.

I am not in a position to go and try and find Maddie. What I can say with absolute certainty however is that had she been in my care she would not have been left alone with her younger siblings in order to allow me to go out to dinner with friends, not for twenty minute periods, not for TWO minute periods. Had I done such a thing and seen the same thing happen to a child in my care I can assure you that the very LAST thing I would be telling myself afterwards was that I was NOT to blame.

Clare wrote:
Lydia, I have not at any time said I hate the McCann's. Never.

I am not in a position to go and try and find Maddie. What I can say with absolute certainty however is that had she been in my care she would not have been left alone with her younger siblings in order to allow me to go out to dinner with friends, not for twenty minute periods, not for TWO minute periods. Had I done such a thing and seen the same thing happen to a child in my care I can assure you that the very LAST thing I would be telling myself afterwards was that I was NOT to blame.

Their are times when I think it seems that way.

I did not actually mean that particular remark personally to you.

I have though often read so much which is clearly total dislike of this couple. So very few people think about the fact that they themselves are not perfect.

When my son's were small I was thought hard as a mother, when I would state things like "who knows how my children will grow up" "if they will do wrong things".
I was proven right my sons are and were beautiful people but they were not perfect. That does not mean that I love them any less that I would not give my life for any child of mine it just makes them normal.
If they did anything wrong I would love them anyway despite their faults and I am sure they felt the same. I am reminded of a reflection I took a copy of which I will copy to you

Compassion and healing

Compassion is not learned without suffering.
Unless we have suffered and wept,
we really don’t understand what compassion is,
nor can we comfort someone who is suffering.
Unless we have walked in darkness,
we can’t help wanderers to find their way.
But if we have suffered we become pathfinders for others.
And it is by reaching out to others
that we ourselves are healed.
Jesus bore the marks of our violent world on his body.
These wounds were proof of his love.
They were the mortal wounds of the Good Shepherd
picked up in caring for his sheep.
The wounds of Jesus are a source of consolation,
courage, and hope to us in our sufferings.
By his wounds we are healed.
Flor McCarthy, SDB, New Sunday & Holy Day Liturgies.(YrA)


So many members of the public spend so much effort writing so many nasty comments about the McCanns I think, I wonder if those same people have ever spent that same amount of time e-mailing even one poster or starting one text message to help that little girl.

These methods are the only way she will ever be found if she is still alive.