I have a major issue with the entire ethos behind our eduction system. The whole concept that everyone should strive to excel in Maths, English and all the academic subjects is just plain wrong. Mixed ability classes are just plain wrong. The idea that academic ability is something we should all have is wrong.

Why should a lawyer or a doctor or and engineer (I'm an engineer) be considered superior to a master joiner or bricklayer. These guys have to work very hard to gain their skills in exactly the same way as "professional" people, it's just that their skill set is with their hands rather than their intellect. Society would fall apart without these guys. However, in school, they are considered second rate pupils because they cannot handle complex calculus. I am a very experienced engineer and have worked in a senior capacity in multi national companies, but I would still defer to a time served and experienced toolmaker when designing jigs and fixtures!

I agree with you Lev that we should stream pupils based on their aptitude and abilities, but I do feel very strongly that woodwork, technical drawing and other technical classes should carry the same kudos as so called academic studies.

Martin wrote:
....I do feel very strongly that woodwork, technical drawing and other technical classes should carry the same kudos as so called academic studies.

I agree. The essential thing is that pupils should be encouraged to develop their aptitudes. My late lamented father-in-law for whom I had the greatest admiration was a hugely talented carpenter. It's very sad that the millions of young people who could be great at the manual skills that could earn them a good living are denied the chance to develop them by an education system that wants to teach them a foreign language or maths when what they need are tech studies and arithmetic.

Levenax wrote:
Martin wrote:
....I do feel very strongly that woodwork, technical drawing and other technical classes should carry the same kudos as so called academic studies.

I agree. The essential thing is that pupils should be encouraged to develop their aptitudes. My late lamented father-in-law for whom I had the greatest admiration was a hugely talented carpenter. It's very sad that the millions of young people who could be great at the manual skills that could earn them a good living are denied the chance to develop them by an education system that wants to teach them a foreign language or maths when what they need are tech studies and arithmetic.

Now I like the way this discussion has gone, very real, and to the point, improving things for the young.

We had all of this in our school system, I can remember this.
Girls were taught needle work, cooking, shock horror, girls even had classes on how to look after babies and children. Boys were taught woodwork, some schools had teacher who taught boys how to fix and maintain a car.

Why did we lose all of this, I just do not know. During the years when I had little to do with the school system it just disappeared. Their are though other problems because it costs firms so much to train the apprentice now that very few companies will give this opportunity to our young.

They hire foreign labour instead.

I don't know what kind of grants exist now but we used to have these available to train the young.

So many real skills are disappearing from our culture, the blacksmith, ever tried to find one lately. The chimney sweep, I really am showing my age now, simple skills like someone to come out and fix your telly or washing machine, everyone just buys new now. A real car mechanic, the parts are all just lift out and in again and they cost a fortune and you cannot mend the parts in the way we used to.

Your namesake in my family Martin is a joiner with a business of his own but he had to work his guts out to get there. Long long hours, missing time with his wife and children.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6236108.stm


This is also worth a read and gives many other interesting links

Martin wrote:
I have a major issue with the entire ethos behind our eduction system. The whole concept that everyone should strive to excel in Maths, English and all the academic subjects is just plain wrong. Mixed ability classes are just plain wrong. The idea that academic ability is something we should all have is wrong.

Why should a lawyer or a doctor or and engineer (I'm an engineer) be considered superior to a master joiner or bricklayer. These guys have to work very hard to gain their skills in exactly the same way as "professional" people, it's just that their skill set is with their hands rather than their intellect. Society would fall apart without these guys. However, in school, they are considered second rate pupils because they cannot handle complex calculus. I am a very experienced engineer and have worked in a senior capacity in multi national companies, but I would still defer to a time served and experienced toolmaker when designing jigs and fixtures!

I agree with you Lev that we should stream pupils based on their aptitude and abilities, but I do feel very strongly that woodwork, technical drawing and other technical classes should carry the same kudos as so called academic studies.

Martin

I think in the case of the Master Joiner, as my own dad was, I would call them engineers too. The same title applies to so many of the other trades who also require, remember, to have more than a wee grasp of mathematics to do a job properly. Intellect has a great deal to do with it.

Clare

I don't think Martin meant to infer that a tradesman's skills are purely manual. It takes intelligence to plan any job, even if it is done on the back of a fag packet. And a bundle of common sense is a job requirement too - often missing among the intellectually unchallenged.

Who was the famous philosopher who had multiple cat flaps in his door because he had cats of different sizes?

DavieDites wrote:
Clare

I don't think Martin meant to infer that a tradesman's skills are purely manual. It takes intelligence to plan any job, even if it is done on the back of a fag packet. And a bundle of common sense is a job requirement too - often missing among the intellectually unchallenged.

Who was the famous philosopher who had multiple cat flaps in his door because he had cats of different sizes?

I think Martin meant exactly the opposite. His point seemed to me to be saying that although they perhaps do not shine in academic subjects it is simply that for some pupils excellence lies in the fact that they can show ability in other ares which perhaps a doctor dentist or accountant could not. They are none the less equally intelligent.

I have a nephew who did duel courses at Uni he was top in both courses in medicine and is now in medical research. He has the least common sense I have ever known in a person. Very lovable, a nice person but could not do a shopping without help.

My niece from another sister has gone back into education in Holland at age 42 she has brought up her family and gave up her course in Law to do this. She has decided she wants to nurse. She must sit exams weekly and at the end of this year has just been told she has achieved the best ever marks in this course, never less than 96%. Again a great mum a lovely person but everywhere she goes she gets lost. She is hopeless with money and has lots of other common sense issues.
She has a very high IQ

Intelligence does not always guarantee perfection in everything a person does.

I confused the issue by referring to Engineers because I wanted to personalise my post a bit.

I was really trying to draw the difference between people who are defined as "tradesmen" and people who are defined as "professional".

The point I was trying to make is that, although I am much more educated than a toolmaker, there are areas where his skill set is far more appropriate and useful than mine. His education has been on a mill and a lathe rather than in the classroom. Why on earth should my classroom education be more highly though of than his?

The reason lies in the school when the technical students are looked on as poorer students than the academic students, and that is because schools are run by academics, many of whom can't help themselves as they have no personal knowledge of the world outside education, having left school, gone to University and then gone back to school.

This is what needs to be addressed.

Hiya Martin

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply earlier that you were putting down the "trades" honestly. Having re-read the post I realise it could have come across that way and I apologise.

I didn't realise the Tech-y subjects weren't taught any more actually. I recall a massive Tech-y department in my day with a staff of four teachers. In fact I often envied the boys being able to learn things like that. Engineering of any sort has always fascinated me. I remember my dad drawing up plans and doing all these calculations and even now at this age I still wish, living as I do in an old cottage, that I knew how to do things that we gals just weren't taught.

I used to watch my dad working with wood and be amazed at the results. That's why I will always think of him as an engineer of some sort or at least a master of engineering at its beginnings, you know? He loved "big" engineering too and took us to see Scotland's many fine examples, like the Forth Bridges which still fascinate me to this day. As I got older I went to see other examples myself like the Caledonian Canal which I love to sit by, at Neptune's Staircase in FW or at Fort Augustus where the Canal rises up out of Loch Ness, and watch all the boats negotiating those incredible "stairs". So Martin if you're looking for a wee apprentice (mature) I'm yer wummin!

I think too that people skills often come low on the list of priorities for those who consider themselves to be the true "professionals" and that perhaps more time should be spent on delivering some tutoring in that area. I find it is a very good thing to have experience of all kinds of people for it means you can relate to anyone, go anywhere and never let yourself down or feel isolated. Those who have been trapped at whatever end of the class system, whether among the "lower or the higher orders" generally want to stay where they feel safe. It doesn't help either group to mix with or trust others.

During my time in the Civil Service I dealt with different kinds of people on a daily basis from the professional - the Accountant - to the customer who did his own tax affairs. I recall the arrival of Self Assessment which brought many changes for everyone and seeing a man sitting waiting for assistance who seemed to keep going further and further down the queue. Each time it was his turn he would say "No, I need a few more minutes." and start shuffling through paperwork again. He looked very stressed and anxious. Finally I went over to him and sat down and said was there a problem. Without giving him time to answer I began to tell him how busy it had been and how some of us had been parachuted in from upstairs to help with the number of people needing help and that he shouldn't worry because Self Assessment was new to all of us. I told him about 20 staff had already been taken away in straitjackets. That made him laugh and relax. I took the paperwork from him and started to leaf through it. He eventually relaxed more but finally he said to me, "Thing is hen, I canny read or write very good and I thought youse would think I was just stupit. I've been readin this form for weeks!" The truth was out and that man's problems were sorted out within 15 minutes as was his SA Tax Return. People who read other people well will deal with situations like that well and realise someone is struggling with something. They will know how to deal with it gently and sensitively and find an answer which doesn't humiliate anyone.

In this big world of ours we all do different things and our different jobs are all important. Industry has many different sectors and all are pretty much vital. Regardless of where we are in the scheme of things it is good to respect ability and expertise no matter where we find it and applaud it.

Good post Claire