Jamrie wrote:
Regarding suicide bombers who you say are willing to die for their cause, which may be true in some cases but not all. In other cases they are willing to die because they have been promised that their families will be well taken care off financially.

In a recent BBC programe it showed how some of these young men who lived in abject poverty were recruited from the slum areas of Algeria and Morocco and other north African countries taken to the Middle East, and indoctrinated into a suicide bombers way of life, which includes being mostly drug dependent. You would have to be, to do what they plan to do.

You have put your finger on one major causal factor, long-term grinding poverty. However you fail to mention the role of the colonial power in North Africa, France. The French were, and are, extremely racist in their treatment of their North African colonial, now ex-colonial subjects.
Their brutal suppression of independence movements created lasting hotility and a fertile recruitment site for anti-Western exrremists, and in Vietnam led to the rise of Ho Chi Minh.

However in relation to the poverty instead of the West spending hundreds of billions on weaponry why don't we spend it on improving the lives of these poor people?

Next the BBC. The BBC is NOT an unbiased purveyor of information in these matters as was amply demonstrated by their craven kow-towing over the whole lead up to the Iraq War inculding their reporting of the weapons of mass destruction issues and on the humanitarian devastation that was 'our' sanctions regime. 'People like me' opposed it.

Next 'people like me being a worry'. It's precisely because we have a supine and complicit press and media and the sheep-like obedience of people like yourself that our governments have perpetrated the following on their own people:-

Police officers without identification numbers attacking pickets during the Miner's strike (illegal), perfectly peaceful demonstration of innocent lawfully protesting people penned into Oxford Street for 4 hours (illegal), the Guilford 4, the Birmingham 6 (of whom Lord Denning said 'it would be better that they languished in jail rather than risk a loss of public faith in the operation of the police and courts' when refusing them leave to appeal their convictions), the murder of Stephen Waldorf by the Metropolitan police, the murder of John Menenzes by the Met AGAIN. Not to mention the travesty that was the Lockerbie trial.

Our government's support for dictators and overthrow of democracy in Chile, Nicaragua, Indonesia, Burma, Guatemala, Saudi Arabia, China, our craven support for sanctions against Cuba, not to mention Thatcher's support for apartheid South Africa where Denis was making millions, our unwavering support for the Israeli government who created and funded Hamas to undemine Fatah. Whose longstanding undermining of any hope of a moderate solution to the plight of both their people and the Plalestinians has been the major factor in creating suicide bombers.

If you incarcerate and humiliate moderates and render them powerless in the eyes of their people then you are complicit in the growth of more extreme leaders. When you then imprison their followers and martyr these leaders you are complicit in the creation of more extreme leaders still.

Read the writings of the Jewish activist Uri Avenry for a more objective discussion of the Isreali state and its reaction to the Palestinians and complicity in the tit-for-tat situation it now finds itself in.

Read John Pilger and Robert Fisk for a more unbaised reading of the history of Arab terrorism, Nationalism and the behaviour of our Western governments.

My grandparents fought 2 Wars to give me the right to hold my government accountable for what they do.

They already hold records of every phone call I make and text I send for 6 months. They already monitor my emails. When I check in at the airport they send my passport details to the police force of the country I'm going to. Their police can breathalise me, stop and search me at random. If I access certain websites I can be raided under the supposedly temporary anti-terrorism legislation.

I am not a terrorisrt and supposedly am 'innocent until proven guilty'. Yet they incrementally are removing my freedoms.

And you say I and people like me are a worry!!!!

In the words of an old environmental maxim "if you're not part of the solution YOU ARE THE PROBLEM"

Despite what passes for 'analysis' in our supine, celebrity title-tattle obsessed media no human action exists in isolation from the world around it. You need to look for these connections and underlying causes.

There is a long history of 'people like me' in these islands. And it is largely because of people like me who question, cajole and protest that sheep like you have the freedoms you have and yet will not protect.

Wow! I feel that I have been severely reprimanded, although the only comment that I made was to a BBC programe that I watched only recently.
Whether you think that the story was biased because it was a BBC production is not for me to say.

I'm only reporting an aspect of the story, ie. the recruitment of the young men as potential suicide bombers.
I certainly didn't feel the need to explain why there is such abject poverty in some of these countries, that is all history as far as I'm concerned.

Although I'm very well aware of the French colonial rule and of the atrocities that were carried out,especially in French Indo-China, perhaps they are not much different than the Brits when they were also so called colonial masters.

You say that instead of the West spending billions on weapons, why don't we spend it on trying to improve the lives of these poor people, well that is something that I entirely agree with, unfortunately I know that this will never happen.

If I may be so bold as to quote from another tv station, this time Al-Jazeera, (excellent news coverage)They asked what is the purpose of the "Arab League"?
Well apparently it was set up in 1945 with the aim of promoting Arab Unity and co-operation.
Unfortunately as mentioned in the programe, apart from the annual handshaking, backslapping, and hugging, nothing ever gets done, all they seem to do is agree to disagree.
This is pretty much like the UN, one of whose aims is the erradication of poverty, and they have failed miserably in that respect.

B'man, do you think that you were the only person that opposed sanctions? I think that most of the country opposed them.
Actually this small country where I now reside, it's an open secret, was one of the few that ignored the sanctions and supplied Iraq through the back door so to speak.

Yes it's a very cruel world that we live in I sincerely wish that everyone could live in peace, but being a realist I know that this will never happen.

Incidently, I never said that people like you are a worry.

Jamrie wrote:

Incidently, I never said that people like you are a worry.

Sorry Jamrie you didn't. I apologise unreservedly. It was another poster. My mistake.

I agree that young men are being recruited as potential terrorists but I also understand why those young men are joining up in droves. Injustice tends to have that effect.

I don't feel any surprise either that the Arab League hasn't come to much. Why should they even try when they know ultimately that the will of Israel will always carry more weight. When Israel can commit breach after breach of all sorts of resolutions and the UN is powerless to deal with these becauses the US will veto any proposal to punish Israel what exactly is the Arab League supposed to do? The injustice is simply outrageous.

What does surprise me and distress me is that so many globally see these things and say nothing. Those of us who believe in justice speak out frequently but when the vast majority don't appear to care there is indeed little hope of change.

Clare wrote:
I don't feel any surprise either that the Arab League hasn't come to much. Why should they even try when they know ultimately that the will of Israel will always carry more weight. When Israel can commit breach after breach of all sorts of resolutions and the UN is powerless to deal with these becauses the US will veto any proposal to punish Israel what exactly is the Arab League supposed to do? The injustice is simply outrageous.

I agree with you Clare. A lot of people don't like what Israel is doing but when they criticise the excesses of the Israeli government they are branded unfairly as anti-semites. I realise that Israel has an intractable problem with terrorist attacks from Hamas et al but they need to deal with that without devastating the Palestinian population in the West Bank. For years now there has been tit for tat reaction from both sides and the result has been death and misery all round but much more so on the Palestinian side. IMO the UN should enforce the resolutions that prohibit Israel from illegally occupying huge parts of Palestine. Any ordinary person can understand the anger these people feel when their farms and villages are bulldozed to make way for new houses for gun toting ultra orthodox jewish families.
I must finish by saying that I hold no brief for the outrageous behaviour of muslim terrorists either.

robbiedoo58 wrote:
Mr. Bananaman,

People like you are a real worry!

Hey Robbie since to the best of my knowledge we've never met how can you know what I'm like?

So out of interest who are these people like me?

And why are we a worry?

B'man - Ah'm wae you - we've got a police state being incrementally forced upon us. That's the real worry.

No Mr. Bananaman, we have not met. Why are you a bit of a worry? Well, since you ask, you strike me as a tad left wing, and a tad self opinionated. The world is run by those who are considered to be academics/intellectuals and yet.....look at the unholy mess it is in. We all know that the world is a wicked place, yet my fear would be.....that people like you would make it even worse than it is now.

My sole purpose for joining this web-site is to rejoice with like-minded others in the forthcoming Independence of Scotland......which I have yearned for since boyhood. So...I really don't want to be embroiled in rhetoric which goes nowhere.

Perhaps I shouldn't have made such a remark, since you are entitled to be what you want to be.

And in those days.........

robbiedoo58 wrote:
No Mr. Bananaman, we have not met. Why are you a bit of a worry? Well, since you ask, you strike me as a tad left wing, and a tad self opinionated. The world is run by those who are considered to be academics/intellectuals and yet.....look at the unholy mess it is in. We all know that the world is a wicked place, yet my fear would be.....that people like you would make it even worse than it is now.

My sole purpose for joining this web-site is to rejoice with like-minded others in the forthcoming Independence of Scotland......which I have yearned for since boyhood. So...I really don't want to be embroiled in rhetoric which goes nowhere.

Perhaps I shouldn't have made such a remark, since you are entitled to be what you want to be.

And in those days.........

Hi Robbiedoo,

Self-opinionated? Guilty as charged aren't we all?

A tad left wing? Depends where about on the spectrum you are. I belive in social and community responsibility over self-centred individulaism. I believe in worker's rights and responsibities above naked profit and short-term gain. I believe in law and order and policing by consent. I belive in devolved political power and locla communities deciding local issues. If that makes me left wing then fair enough.

The world is NOT run by those considered to be academics or intellectuals the world is run by multi-national businessmen and their lawyers and economists.

The world is in a 'holy' mess. The wars we see right now are the result of three fanatic ideologies Fundamentalist Islam, Fundamentalist Christianity and Neo-liberal market economics.

Since people like me are not responsible for the state of the world as it is now, except perhaps that we didn't do enough to prevent the fanatics from taking over, I fail to see how we can be blamed for trying to improve it.

I support an independent Scotland.

But I have several worries:-

1) There has been no debate about what form of governance it should have, i.e. One or Two houses, elected or non-elected second chamber, P.R. or first past the post, do we want a president?

2) There's no constitution. There's no debate or even a serious committee of the 'great and the good' drawing up ideas even. Let's have a debate about that. What rights do we want, what obligations, who can stand for election, how much can they spend, etc.

3) Scotland has yet to come to terms with its past since Culloden and needs to address the part it played in the creation and continuance of the British Empire, blaming it all on the English wont wash.

4) I live in Eire, a country of similar size, similar lifestyle and similar history except for its faith and its independence. However the economic and political lessons of the Irish republic should be seriously studied by all those advocating an independent Scotland. Particularly with respect to its economic policy and so called 'Celtic Tiger'. Beware of the FDI route to job-creation. Beware also the potential for 'cronyism' and corruption that comes from having such a small pool of politicians, civil servants, planners etc.

Since you don't seem to trust academics or intellectuals who would you like to see running the country?

I want to see a country based on equality, respect and fairness. I want to see a country where being born into a poor family doesn't equate to poorer schoools and educational attainment, poorer health services and health and poorer housing.

If we want to get peole into work then we have to create jobs which foster self-respect and dignity, not minimium wage slavery in dead-end jobs.

I do believe that those who have access to wealth have a duty to help those who do not since no man or woman is an island and all wealth depends on the labour of others.

Inherited wealth and privilege is abhorrent since back in the day the 'hoi-polloi' got their wealth either by having a bigger more vicious bunch of rogues or by doing the royals a favour. Patronage.

I'm a committed environmentalist and part of the reason the world is in the mess it is in is because all of us want more, for less effort and we don't really care how much mess it creates and how many other people have to suffer as long as there are goods in the shops, petrol in our cars and no foreigners next door.

In my opinion we need to ditch the consumer lifestyle, go back to demanding long-lasting goods not this year's model, choose truly sustainable policies and eat what we grow locally.

We have to change corporate share capitalism so that it values environmental sustainability and social stability over narrow profit and the chimera of ever-increasing growth.

So the verdict? Guilty as charged I suppose.

Hi Bananaman

Amazing post. Enjoyed reading it very much. So much in it!

I think you're a bit hard on the religious tho You have to remember that poor old God is often stuck with the blame for the interpretations others put on His plan. I bet He'd really like to kick ass sometimes

I'm sort of optimistic about our future here in Scotland but now and then I get nervous. I would like Independence to come but I don't want it rushed. I am a huge fan of Salmond. I think he is excellent but then he has tons of experience and he knows the drill inside out. He's been around for a long time.

I think Swinney is taking serious risks trusting Councils. (Did you hear Jim McCabe's quote earlier? "Its a concordat, not a contract. I'll take what I need and leave everyone else behind." It proves he has no intention of co operating with the Scottish Government. I'm worried his Council (along with the others) intend to take Swinney to the cleaners and leave the SNP to take the blame.

I'm not happy with MacAskill. I think he has seriously misjudged the mood when it comes to Criminal Justice and I think we've had a bellyload of the soft approach in the last eight years from Labour. Cathy Jamieson's chief concern was the criminal. I realise we need to get the prison population down but not by letting them all out early! Police need to see a SG that is behind them when it comes to justice. People need to see that too. Its vital. I often think its already too late and that the criminals are already in control. So many people have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time and paid a terrible price when a wee gang of thugs decided to kick them to death, or stab them or whatever. There are good young people out there. We need to protect them too by sending out a message that the thugs are going out of circulation. Poverty is often blamed. I don't buy that. I came from a working class background but I learned at school, I passed exams, I went to work and was reared within an environment where there were rules. Sometimes its kind of like rules these days are a form of child abuse. But you know, I had a father there always. Lots don't have that now do they? I know some family set ups now where they are into their third generation of no father being around. I think that's a big clue to where we are now. I don't mean marriages breaking up because that happens. I mean there was never a father around to start with. Its a bad set-up.

I agree we need to talk about Scotland and how we want things to operate. But I want to see the SNP governing solidly in this first term and getting the National Conversation up and running. So what if Labour, the Tories and the Lib-Dems don't want to play. They can engage those who count, the Scottish people.

Lev, cheers for the response below. I despair of the Middle East. It is so frustrating.

"Fitna"

patdollard.com/2008/03/fitna-louies-copy-here-to-stay/

Depressing. The videos are chilling medieval stuff.

Bananaman wrote:
robbiedoo58 wrote:
No Mr. Bananaman, we have not met. Why are you a bit of a worry? Well, since you ask, you strike me as a tad left wing, and a tad self opinionated. The world is run by those who are considered to be academics/intellectuals and yet.....look at the unholy mess it is in. We all know that the world is a wicked place, yet my fear would be.....that people like you would make it even worse than it is now.

My sole purpose for joining this web-site is to rejoice with like-minded others in the forthcoming Independence of Scotland......which I have yearned for since boyhood. So...I really don't want to be embroiled in rhetoric which goes nowhere.

Perhaps I shouldn't have made such a remark, since you are entitled to be what you want to be.

And in those days.........

Hi Robbiedoo,

Self-opinionated? Guilty as charged aren't we all?

A tad left wing? Depends where about on the spectrum you are. I belive in social and community responsibility over self-centred individulaism. I believe in worker's rights and responsibities above naked profit and short-term gain. I believe in law and order and policing by consent. I belive in devolved political power and locla communities deciding local issues. If that makes me left wing then fair enough.

The world is NOT run by those considered to be academics or intellectuals the world is run by multi-national businessmen and their lawyers and economists.

The world is in a 'holy' mess. The wars we see right now are the result of three fanatic ideologies Fundamentalist Islam, Fundamentalist Christianity and Neo-liberal market economics.

Since people like me are not responsible for the state of the world as it is now, except perhaps that we didn't do enough to prevent the fanatics from taking over, I fail to see how we can be blamed for trying to improve it.

I support an independent Scotland.

But I have several worries:-

1) There has been no debate about what form of governance it should have, i.e. One or Two houses, elected or non-elected second chamber, P.R. or first past the post, do we want a president?

2) There's no constitution. There's no debate or even a serious committee of the 'great and the good' drawing up ideas even. Let's have a debate about that. What rights do we want, what obligations, who can stand for election, how much can they spend, etc.

3) Scotland has yet to come to terms with its past since Culloden and needs to address the part it played in the creation and continuance of the British Empire, blaming it all on the English wont wash.

4) I live in Eire, a country of similar size, similar lifestyle and similar history except for its faith and its independence. However the economic and political lessons of the Irish republic should be seriously studied by all those advocating an independent Scotland. Particularly with respect to its economic policy and so called 'Celtic Tiger'. Beware of the FDI route to job-creation. Beware also the potential for 'cronyism' and corruption that comes from having such a small pool of politicians, civil servants, planners etc.

Since you don't seem to trust academics or intellectuals who would you like to see running the country?

I want to see a country based on equality, respect and fairness. I want to see a country where being born into a poor family doesn't equate to poorer schoools and educational attainment, poorer health services and health and poorer housing.

If we want to get peole into work then we have to create jobs which foster self-respect and dignity, not minimium wage slavery in dead-end jobs.

I do believe that those who have access to wealth have a duty to help those who do not since no man or woman is an island and all wealth depends on the labour of others.

Inherited wealth and privilege is abhorrent since back in the day the 'hoi-polloi' got their wealth either by having a bigger more vicious bunch of rogues or by doing the royals a favour. Patronage.

I'm a committed environmentalist and part of the reason the world is in the mess it is in is because all of us want more, for less effort and we don't really care how much mess it creates and how many other people have to suffer as long as there are goods in the shops, petrol in our cars and no foreigners next door.

In my opinion we need to ditch the consumer lifestyle, go back to demanding long-lasting goods not this year's model, choose truly sustainable policies and eat what we grow locally.

We have to change corporate share capitalism so that it values environmental sustainability and social stability over narrow profit and the chimera of ever-increasing growth.

So the verdict? Guilty as charged I suppose.

Bananaman, you're a man after my own heart!

Robbiedoo, all you have to do is look at George W. Bush to realize your assertion that the world is run by supposed academics/intellectuals is patently false. That man is an idiot! A chimpanzee in a suit, except chimpanzees are smarter than the shrub in the white house.

Bananaman wrote:
However in relation to the poverty instead of the West spending hundreds of billions on weaponry why don't we spend it on improving the lives of these poor people?


I'd rather we spent it on improving our own infrastructure and training our young people so we can stop letting immigrants in to "improve" our economy. Let islam look after its own. Muslim nations have got $T of income from oil so they should do what the koran allegedly says and help the poor. The disgusting Saudis want to spend £M building a giant mosque in Greenwich in London. We should tell them 1. they can build mosques here only when they permit Christian churches in Saudi Arabia and 2. send the money to Algerian slums instead.

The 'threat' from Islam is a sham perpetrated by the yanks into thinking we have an common enemy that has to be defeated at any cost.

Its propaganda at its best and the more we are fed this bullshit the more the braindead fukwits will be rising up, sticking on their jackboots and goose-stepping over all people with skin just a tad darker than whats acceptable.

There have been very few terrorist attacks on the UK perpetrated by Islamic extremists so this 'threat' we are being continually fed is such a croc of pish. Our civil liberties are being eroded more and more because of this make-believe threat and the quicker the nation wakes up to this fact the better.

The 'attacks' on America were horrendous, no one will ever disagree with that, as well as the attack we had on July 7th, but lets look at the bigger picture.

How many innocent civillians worldwide have been killed because of the American foreign policy? Hundreds of thousands, perhaps as much as a million. We're getting into holocaust numbers now and the more i see Bush on the TV wittering on about 'freedom and democracy' the more i want to put my foot through the screen.

The war in Eye-raq, don't get me started, how on earth the American govt came to the conclusion that Saddam was some how involved on the attacks on America, Iraq couldn't muster a stiff breeze just then because of the 5 years of sanctions which incedentaly was directly resposible for the deaths of thousands of civillian Iraqis.

No, the thread doesn't come from Islam, it comes from that Chimp in a suit, namely George W Bush, he's the biggest threat to world peace and security, not some make believe airy fary shite about Islam.