news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7381542.stm

I have the greatest sympathy for all parents of missing children and one can only imagine the torments that they must suffer. This week is first anniversary of Madeleine McCann's disappearance and there have been requests for everybody to pray for her or her safe return. As a non religious person I find this strange. If there is a god and he or she is omnipotent, omniscient and loving why did he or she allow an innocent child to be abducted and why hasn't the child been returned safely especially after the millions of prayers that must have been said for her? I know that the term "mystery of faith" covers a lot of dodgy things but I'm really perplexed by this one.

It is a difficult subject, and the explanation for this needs a more intelligent and knowledgeable person than I am.

I can tell you how I feel.

When I lost my youngest son my anger at this non-existent God knew no bounds, and it lasted for years. Fortunately intelligence wins the day and I eventually realised that we have free will. We are given all we need to follow a good life, to live a good life, but we are human as are doctors and scientists and murderers and people who steal very precious children like Madeline McCann.

God cannot and does not want to control our every action he gives us guidelines, a framework to live by, and then trusts us to follow.
I suppose it is a bit like we as parents give our children a moral example to live by and then trust them to live by it. We are not with them every minute of every day so we cannot control their actions.

If we blamed him for everything then I would say he was the reason my oldest son got cancer or the reason my Dad died as young as he did, or the reason a man would abuse a child. I do not believe that is the case.
I believe we as humans have caused many of the huge disasters that effect man and we as humans must try to do better.

Levenax wrote:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7381542.stm

I have the greatest sympathy for all parents of missing children and one can only imagine the torments that they must suffer. This week is first anniversary of Madeleine McCann's disappearance and there have been requests for everybody to pray for her or her safe return. As a non religious person I find this strange. If there is a god and he or she is omnipotent, omniscient and loving why did he or she allow an innocent child to be abducted and why hasn't the child been returned safely especially after the millions of prayers that must have been said for her? I know that the term "mystery of faith" covers a lot of dodgy things but I'm really perplexed by this one.

Hi Lev. I don't understand why this perplexes you. Madeleine's parents were the ones who neglected her and left her and her siblings alone and unprotected while they went out. Even if we don't believe in a God all of us know the world is now a very dangerous place for children. I don't blame God for what happened to her, I blame her parents because for all they wail about how they are suffering the one who paid the real price is Madeleine. Did you hear Kate McCann saying how she didn't understand Maddie's question, "Why didn't you come when we were crying last night?" Can you explain to me why a woman, who is also a doctor, didn't understand? That question was asked on the morning of the day Maddie was taken so even tho she had asked a huge question of her mother, her parents STILL went back out that night and left their kids alone. God didn't do that Lev, her paprents did.

As for prayer I could give you many examples of when prayer has taken me through tough times, really tough times. I could tell you tales of astonishing results too. I know I have seen God working Lev, honestly, but I respect your own right to do your own thing.

We can look at the world sometimes and say why did God let that happen? But you know man runs the world and its us who have made a complete mess of it. Money, power, greed, they have all played their part even to the point where various religions fight each other. That's because they are affected by the pitfalls too, some bigtime, and they get caught up in the temptations out there too. I wouldn't call myself a religious freak. I love humour, I like people and not just those who share my faith, I like politics, I like to debate, I like to socialise. But I'm glad I have God in my life because I think it would be empty without Him.

All prayers are answered.

But sometimes the answer is "NO".

Aye - Ah've been gettin a lot ae that answer lately.

I saw somebody on another forum who had a postscript that ran something like:

I used to pray for a bicycle. Then I realised it didn't work like that. So I stole a bicycle and prayed for forgiveness.

Sorry for the levity ...

DavieDites wrote:
I saw somebody on another forum who had a postscript that ran something like:

I used to pray for a bicycle. Then I realised it didn't work like that. So I stole a bicycle and prayed for forgiveness.

Sorry for the levity ...

I've seen that one too.

I have to disagree o the subject of the McCanns Claire

I watched their documentary and I believe why they found Maddie's question so hard to understand is because she had been checked on so often.
Would you have said the same if they had used a professional baby listening service which is available in many holiday resorts.
These parents felt at ease it was such a quiet resort and decided to be a baby listening service between them.

Personally I would not have left my children but neither am I a perfect person I have made many choices as a parent through ignorance or being in a hurry or for all sorts of reasons that I now regret.
If we are all honest we have all made bad decisions as people and as parents we just don't get punished in the way that Maddie and her parent have.

LYDIA REID wrote:
I have to disagree o the subject of the McCanns Claire

I didn't see the programme but although I was critical of the McCanns at the time for what seemed to be neglect I now realise that what they did was make an assumption that went disastrously wrong. Their daughter is probably dead and it looks as if they'll have to live the rest of their lives being tortured by the guilt and the horror of imagining what happened to her. As a parent I've done things that were wrong and that I now regret. My son ended up in hospital because I left a bottle of his medication where he could reach it when he was a toddler. He was OK, but I felt really bad because of my stupidity and carelessness and I still squirm at the thought of it. That same event could have resulted in his death - but I was lucky and the McCanns weren't

b]LYDIA REID wrote:[/b]
I have to disagree o the subject of the McCanns Claire

I watched their documentary and I believe why they found Maddie's question so hard to understand is because she had been checked on so often.
Would you have said the same if they had used a professional baby listening service which is available in many holiday resorts.
These parents felt at ease it was such a quiet resort and decided to be a baby listening service between them.

Personally I would not have left my children but neither am I a perfect person I have made many choices as a parent through ignorance or being in a hurry or for all sorts of reasons that I now regret.
If we are all honest we have all made bad decisions as people and as parents we just don't get punished in the way that Maddie and her parent have.

Lydia,I have thought long and hard about the McCann's part in all of this and I will never change my view. They took their children on holiday and the left them unattended, unprotected and vulnerable in a foreign country.

They took turns to go back to the apartment every so often yes but when you are talking about three children of 3 and under that isn't good enough Lydia. Ultimately those children were alone in that apartment, an unlocked apartment I understand. Domestic accidents can happen at home even when parents are present. Maddie was an active four year old. She could have been out of the door of the apartment or anything during the periods when her parents weren't doing their "checks".

Madeleine had herself asked the really important question that morning, "Where were you when we were crying?" On holidays I've seen many parents out in the evenings with huge buggies containing two children, maybe even three at times, all conked out sleeping, but they were safe and they were with their parents.

Yes we all make mistakes but every parent I know who has talked about this felt that leaving kids of that age alone was completely irresponsible.

I am sick of hearing about the McCann's and their suffering. The person I still think of every day is Madeleine because SHE is the one who suffered here. I hope if she is alive then its because someone took her to bring up as their own daughter. If someone took her for any other reason then I hope she is dead Lydia because it doesn't bear thinking about. There are wicked, evil people in the world who prey on helpless children and Portugal allegedly is part of that network Lydia. Those two left their kids at the mercy of such sick people because it was too much trouble to take their kids with them or take turn about remaining with them.

I still feel you're being a little harsh. This case hit the headlines because the McCanns had the resources to generate the publicity. A consequence of that publicity was an intense scrutiny of every aspect of their actions, inactions, characters and their well heeled lifestyle so obviously something they did was going to attract negative comment. Mr McCann came over as unsympathetic and cold and his nasal whiny voice didn't help. His wife looked odd to many observers and she was tinged with that well off veneer that the underclass don't like. The result was that the gutter press had a feeding frenzy. Unfortunately only The Express and its spastic sister The Star eventually got shot down for their disgraceful behaviour.
Dozens of other kids disappear without trace and we know nothing of it. When I was on holiday in Sicily in April I saw two different posters just like the McCann ones in different towns with pictures of bonny wee lassies who had vanished without trace a year or two ago. It happened at the other end of Europe, the parents may have been poor or ill educated and so it didn't make the news.

Clare wrote:
b]LYDIA REID wrote:[/b]
I have to disagree o the subject of the McCanns Claire

I watched their documentary and I believe why they found Maddie's question so hard to understand is because she had been checked on so often.
Would you have said the same if they had used a professional baby listening service which is available in many holiday resorts.
These parents felt at ease it was such a quiet resort and decided to be a baby listening service between them.

Personally I would not have left my children but neither am I a perfect person I have made many choices as a parent through ignorance or being in a hurry or for all sorts of reasons that I now regret.
If we are all honest we have all made bad decisions as people and as parents we just don't get punished in the way that Maddie and her parent have.

Lydia,I have thought long and hard about the McCann's part in all of this and I will never change my view. They took their children on holiday and the left them unattended, unprotected and vulnerable in a foreign country.

They took turns to go back to the apartment every so often yes but when you are talking about three children of 3 and under that isn't good enough Lydia. Ultimately those children were alone in that apartment, an unlocked apartment I understand. Domestic accidents can happen at home even when parents are present. Maddie was an active four year old. She could have been out of the door of the apartment or anything during the periods when her parents weren't doing their "checks".

Madeleine had herself asked the really important question that morning, "Where were you when we were crying?" On holidays I've seen many parents out in the evenings with huge buggies containing two children, maybe even three at times, all conked out sleeping, but they were safe and they were with their parents.

Yes we all make mistakes but every parent I know who has talked about this felt that leaving kids of that age alone was completely irresponsible.

I am sick of hearing about the McCann's and their suffering. The person I still think of every day is Madeleine because SHE is the one who suffered here. I hope if she is alive then its because someone took her to bring up as their own daughter. If someone took her for any other reason then I hope she is dead Lydia because it doesn't bear thinking about. There are wicked, evil people in the world who prey on helpless children and Portugal allegedly is part of that network Lydia. Those two left their kids at the mercy of such sick people because it was too much trouble to take their kids with them or take turn about remaining with them.

All that knowledge is with hindsight Claire, it is only since Maddie that we now know how involved Portugal is in the abduction of children.
I have huge concerns about the reliability of the first police officer who ran the case. I wonder at his involvement.

I must admit to being a totally neurotic mum when mine were small always worrying over their health especially. When I took them on holidays I was still with their Dad and I would not have left them. I did do other things though.

Things that when I look back I think how could you?
My oldest son was asthmatic from birth and sometimes during the night he was up and down so much. One night when he had a temperature I had given him junior disprin, they used to come in blister packs. I was so tired when I eventually got him to sleep that I put these under my pillow meaning to move them in the morning.
I was a child minder in those days and had a toddler the same age as my second son as well as the two I had.
Upstairs as far as I was concerned was just as safe for them to play.
My second son went under my pillow removed the disprin and opened a whole packet. When I saw this I flipped, ambulance hospital, total panic.
After a blood test confirmed what he told me I realised he had been putting each one on a spoon just as he had seen me do, adding water but of course each time the little pill had washed off and down the sink. He had managed to take only one.
There were though 11 in the packet.
Can you imagine what could have happened if he had just eaten them, I still do. I had nightmares.
Trying as hard as I could I was not perfect and I am still not, I don't even wish for perfection, how hard would that be to live with. We just have to try as hard as we can.
I do though try to be understanding when people make wrong decisions because some of mine were not that great.
I believed long before the documentary that these people had felt safe in this resort. If they had felt this area was not safe I do not believe they would have left their children.

Levenax wrote:
I still feel you're being a little harsh. This case hit the headlines because the McCanns had the resources to generate the publicity. A consequence of that publicity was an intense scrutiny of every aspect of their actions, inactions, characters and their well heeled lifestyle so obviously something they did was going to attract negative comment. Mr McCann came over as unsympathetic and cold and his nasal whiny voice didn't help. His wife looked odd to many observers and she was tinged with that well off veneer that the underclass don't like. The result was that the gutter press had a feeding frenzy. Unfortunately only The Express and its spastic sister The Star eventually got shot down for their disgraceful behaviour.
Dozens of other kids disappear without trace and we know nothing of it. When I was on holiday in Sicily in April I saw two different posters just like the McCann ones in different towns with pictures of bonny wee lassies who had vanished without trace a year or two ago. It happened at the other end of Europe, the parents may have been poor or ill educated and so it didn't make the news.

Levinax
I think your assessment of this case is spot on.

I like to think that if nothing else the new alert system may help children like Maddie.

It is strange though how determined her mum is that she is still alive. Like Claire I have some not so Godly thoughts about if she is still alive. If someone has her I hope it is as a child to love and keep as their own and maybe one day she will be old enough to find her way home.
My nephew moved to Holland at age four and he still has vivid memories of his family life in Scotland, he is over thirty. We don't know anything, and I think that must be the terrible torment for her parents. I often think though what a lifetime of terrible nightmares for one bad decision.

Wow, I didn't realise that this was a "class" thing created by the "under-classes" who are simply jealous of the McCanns and are being mean to them when all they did was leave three children of under four alone in an unlocked apartment while they went out.

Personally I didn't call it along class lines. I just saw two very selfish, irresponsible parents whose daughter had actually questioned their behaviour herself on the morning of the very day they repeated the pattern and left her alone with her siblings, yet again! "Where were you when we were crying last night?"

Lydia, there has been knowledge of Portugal's role in international paedophile rings for some time. But even if that knowledge didn't exist it is surely the most basic rule of good child care not to go out and leave children alone. To excuse that horrifies me. I accept some newspapers crossed lines but ultimately the McCann's ARE responsible and I cannot find any sympathy for them. We aren't talking about a situation where they had to rush out urgently for some reason. They went out to dinner and by all accounts this seems to have been the regular pattern. They chose not to use the babysitting service available also. I think they were grossly negligent. I think most people do.

Clare wrote:
Wow, I didn't realise that this was a "class" thing created by the "under-classes" who are simply jealous of the McCanns and are being mean to them when all they did was leave three children of under four alone in an unlocked apartment while they went out.

Personally I didn't call it along class lines. I just saw two very selfish, irresponsible parents whose daughter had actually questioned their behaviour herself on the morning of the very day they repeated the pattern and left her alone with her siblings, yet again! "Where were you when we were crying last night?"

Lydia, there has been knowledge of Portugal's role in international paedophile rings for some time. But even if that knowledge didn't exist it is surely the most basic rule of good child care not to go out and leave children alone. To excuse that horrifies me. I accept some newspapers crossed lines but ultimately the McCann's ARE responsible and I cannot find any sympathy for them. We aren't talking about a situation where they had to rush out urgently for some reason. They went out to dinner and by all accounts this seems to have been the regular pattern. They chose not to use the babysitting service available also. I think they were grossly negligent. I think most people do.

Well I really did not know about Portugal and members of my family went to Portugal the year before Maddie went missing and although like me they would not leave the children I think they would have had second thoughts about going just because careful as you are you cannot have your eyes on them every second. Ours were old enough (10 and 12) for instance to go to kids clubs.

I have a feeling we must agree to disagree on the blame issue. I also feel that even if I were to blame them absolutely they and Maddie have paid the ultimate price for anything they have done wrong.

They will spend their whole lives in torture unless they get her back.

If they got her back tomorrow their lives will never be the same again.

All they can do now is pray for forgiveness and do what they are doing now, spend their lives looking for her, just in case she is still alive.

If they have the same God that I know he will forgive if their request is genuine.