Reading the BBC's item on Irelands's voting on European Union's Lisbon Treaty.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7452171.stm
It appears that many do not understand, or have even read what this treaty is all about. Myself I have not read the thing because I have not been asked to vote on it.
Has another of our freedoms has been trashed, what next?

The treaty can be compared to the constitution here:

www.openeurope.org.uk/research/comparative.pdf

Many people are under the impression that the E.U. already exists - it doesn't. What we have at present is the European community. This treaty would have changed that. The provisions as set out in the treaty would have established a true European Union and reduced national powers accordingly.

The Irish, rightly, voted it down. For all the flowery language about decisions being taken by the people, 3 million Irish folk were the only ones to get a vote. Sickening.

Will they pull a Denmark and make them vote again and again until they get it right?

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7452171.stm

Even the Irish who have benefitted to the tune of €Bs from the EU and whose farmers still grow fat on CAP handouts have rejected this vile proposal. Let's hope that this is the final nail in its coffin.

scunnert wrote:
The treaty can be compared to the constitution here:

www.openeurope.org.uk/research/comparative.pdf

Many people are under the impression that the E.U. already exists - it doesn't. What we have at present is the European community. This treaty would have changed that. The provisions as set out in the treaty would have established a true European Union and reduced national powers accordingly.

The Irish, rightly, voted it down. For all the flowery language about decisions being taken by the people, 3 million Irish folk were the only ones to get a vote. Sickening.

Will they pull a Denmark and make them vote again and again until they get it right?

The BBC site is very anti the no result judging by a quick read. They point out that Ireland only has 3 million voters with a sort of "How Dare They!" indignation. But I agree with you Scunny, if they're so sure its a good thing why are they so reluctant to allow us to vote on it?

'Luxembourg Premier and Finance Minister Jean-Claude Juncker said the defeat of the Lisbon Treaty represents a new "European crisis."

"Ireland said 'no' to the Lisbon Treaty,'' Juncker told reporters in Luxembourg today. "This is not good for Europe." '

www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0613/breaking1.htm

'Sylvie Goulard, head of the European Movement in France, said "the French presidency is interested in maintaining its agenda" because there is no reason to renounce its objectives regarding the climate "on the pretext that several tens of thousands of Irish voters said 'no'" to the treaty.'

www.ttc.org/200806131600.m5dg0yb12081.htm

'POLISH PRIME MINISTER DONALD TUSK

"Ireland will for sure find a way to ratify this treaty"

uk.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUKG...irtualBrandChannel=0


'Britain, France and Germany were set to make clear their resolve to continue ratifying a treaty designed to overhaul the bloc's creaking institutions. That may put the onus back on Dublin to find a way out that allows the reforms to take effect.

A senior diplomat said Prime Minister Gordon Brown had reassured key EU partners that London would complete parliamentary ratification, despite likely fierce pressure from Eurosceptics for a referendum or to scrap the treaty.'

www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=585903

'JOSE MANUEL BARROSO, EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT
The No vote in Ireland has not solved the problems which the Lisbon Treaty is designed to solve... The European Commission believes the remaining ratifications should continue to take their course... The treat is not dead. I believe the treaty is alive.'

'FRANK-WALTER STEINMEIER, GERMAN FOREIGN MINISTER
Naturally we are disappointed, it is a hard blow. Nevertheless, I am convinced that we need this treaty. Therefore we are sticking with our goal for it to come into force. The ratification process must continue.'

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7453378.stm


'Article 2 [1a] The Union's values
The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity,
freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights ...'

www.openeurope.org.uk/research/comparative.pdf

Except when we don't vote correctly?

The EU needs reformed and the Treaty would have brought much needed change to the EU's institutions and it's back to the drawing board which is a shame because there's been so much crap thrown about regarding Lisbon.

The status quo is a no-no because the EU and its 27 (soon to be 29) Member States cannot function efficiently as it is currently organised. The UK leaving the EU is also a no-no (even under the Tories).

So, my question to those who are anti-Lisbon, given the above, what changes would you advocate instead of Lisbon ?

So it would appear Scunny. Interesting so many insist they will ratify it. Yesterday they were saying if Ireland voted no it was dead in the water. If nothing else surely it proves the need to allow countries to vote on it, why are they afraid of that?

scunnert wrote:


Many people are under the impression that the E.U. already exists - it doesn't.

The Treaty on European Union (the Maastricht Treaty)

I: COMMON PROVISIONS

Article A

By this Treaty, the High Contracting Parties establish among themselves a European Union, hereinafter called ‘the Union’.

TLJ wrote:
The EU needs reformed and the Treaty would have brought much needed change to the EU's institutions and it's back to the drawing board which is a shame because there's been so much crap thrown about regarding Lisbon.

The status quo is a no-no because the EU and its 27 (soon to be 29) Member States cannot function efficiently as it is currently organised. The UK leaving the EU is also a no-no (even under the Tories).

So, my question to those who are anti-Lisbon, given the above, what changes would you advocate instead of Lisbon ?

Hi T. I am no expert on what is proposed I'm ashamed to say but in my own defence I tried to find out more about the Lisbon Treaty and found the information available unhelpful to say the least.

On the general subject of the EU I believe many people are now highly suspicious of the whole deal. I would never not want to be part of Europe however I have myself felt at times that it was seeking to undermine the member countries in some areas, our Laws for instance, and even on issues like taxes. I think some issues are for individual countries to make decisions on and individual parliaments.

On a specific issue, the massive movement of people from some areas of Europe to others, I think the EU has failed spectacularly and that issue alone is probably the main reason why so many in the UK resent the EU and all we perceive it to stand for. Many see it as an advocate of the open door policy and we are seeing what such a policy can do. Look at the publicity surrounding illegal immigrants, the resentment built up as a result of that and the open hostility which I would say has been fuelled shamelessly by some sections of the UK media. It could also be said that some of us think the EU is becoming too big.

The other thing is money for again, due to adverse press coverage, we wonder what are these MEP's doing with all this money? There have been many scandals involving financial dealings, fraud and all sorts. So people don't trust the EU and see it as a massive gravy train.

I don't see why it all has to be so complicated. You've asked what we want. I want transparency, I want things simplified and I certainly want a strong Europe but I don't want an EU which, for example, joins in with the US when it comes to denying the people of Palestine much needed food and other aid just because they elected a Party the US doesn't approve of.

This current crisis, the Lisbon Treaty, the fact that they did not want countries to vote on it worried me from the beginning because I couldn't understand why that was the case? I feel for Ireland because they gave their people the chance to do that, to express a view and now they are being pilloried. "There are only 3 million of them, their view can't be permitted to change anything." Why on earth not? The only reason we don't know what any other country thinks is because they won't let them vote on it.

The other thing is, (sorry I'm rambling all over the place here by the way (shut it Lev)) it was also stated in recent weeks that this Treaty would automatically do away with around sixty individual rights (of member countries) when ratified. It was reading this that I went to look for more information and couldn't find it. That would scare people wouldn't it? It scared me.

So in answer to your last question I think they do need to start proving to the people of Europe what they really are about and how they intend to make it work. I think they need to go back to the drawing board and get real if they want everyone on board.

TLJ wrote:
scunnert wrote:


Many people are under the impression that the E.U. already exists - it doesn't.

The Treaty on European Union (the Maastricht Treaty)

I: COMMON PROVISIONS

Article A

By this Treaty, the High Contracting Parties establish among themselves a European Union, hereinafter called ‘the Union’.

Now I am confused! Why then does the opening article in the Lisbon Treaty state:
'Article 1 [1] Establishment of the Union
By this Treaty, the HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES establish among themselves a EUROPEAN UNION, hereinafter called ‘the Union’ on which the Member States confer competences to attain objectives they have in common. '?

scunnert wrote:
TLJ wrote:
scunnert wrote:


Many people are under the impression that the E.U. already exists - it doesn't.

The Treaty on European Union (the Maastricht Treaty)

I: COMMON PROVISIONS

Article A

By this Treaty, the High Contracting Parties establish among themselves a European Union, hereinafter called ‘the Union’.

Now I am confused! Why then does the opening article in the Lisbon Treaty state:
'Article 1 [1] Establishment of the Union
By this Treaty, the HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES establish among themselves a EUROPEAN UNION, hereinafter called ‘the Union’ on which the Member States confer competences to attain objectives they have in common. '?

I suspect that you're reading the consolidated version. Remember that the Govt's argument against a referendum was that Lisbon is an amending Treaty - ie,
it modifies existing ones - whereas the Constitution effectively replaced the existing Treaties with a single document.

What we were heading for here was a United States of Europe, with a president (Blair fav' for the job), a constitution, in fact the full bhuna.

What the Irish vote does is put the lie to the Westminster claim that Scotland has more say in Europe as part of the Union and an independent Scotland would be too small to have any clout.

From the Telegraph:

tinyurl.com/4ybjhx

"The agreement, which would sweep away dozens of national vetoes, must be ratified by all 27 European Union members before it can take force next year."

The EU's Lisbon Treaty explained:

tinyurl.com/6mkdqt

Referendum results in full

Ireland referendum 2008

Results by constituency of the vote on the Lisbon Treaty held on July 12 2008


Yes (%) Nice2001(%) No (%) Nice2001(%) Turnout (%)

Carlow/Kilkenny 26,210 49.8 47.7 26,206 49.8 52.3 50.9

Cavan/Monaghan 22,346 45.0 48.1 27,113 54.6 51.9 53.4

Clare 20,982 51.7 48.7 19,490 48.0 51.3 52.5

Cork East 18,177 42.9 43.5 24,052 56.7 56.5 50.6

Cork North-Central 12,440 35.4 41.2 22,546 64.2 58.8 53.4

Cork North-West 16,253 46.0 45.4 18,991 53.7 54.6 55.6

Cork South-Central 22,112 44.7 45.4 27,166 54.9 54.6 55.0

Cork South-West 14,235 44.2 47.2 17,806 55.3 52.8 55.3

Donegal North-East 9,006 35.1 39.9 16,504 64.3 60.1 45.7

Donegal South-West 10,174 36.4 39.6 17,659 63.2 60.4 46.5

Dublin Central 12,328 43.6 40.9 15,816 56.0 59.1 48.8

Dublin Mid-West 12,577 39.5 41.9 19,182 60.3 58.1 51.7

Dublin North 22,696 50.3 48.0 22,194 49.2 52.0 55.3

Dublin North-Central 15,772 50.5 43.0 15,396 49.3 57.0 61.1

Dublin North-East 12,917 43.1 43.5 16,973 56.6 56.5 57.2

Dublin North-West 9,576 36.3 42.1 16,749 63.5 57.9 52.9

Dublin South 32,190 62.7 51.9 19,005 37.0 48.1 58.4

Dublin South-Central 16,410 38.9 43.2 25,624 60.8 56.8 51.6

Dublin South-East 17,111 61.4 49.3 10,644 38.2 50.7 49.6

Dublin South West 12,601 34.8 39.1 23,456 64.8 60.9 53.6

Dublin West 13,573 47.8 44.2 14,754 51.9 55.8 54.5

Dun Laoghaire 31,524 63.3 53.5 18,149 36.4 46.5 58.8

Galway East 18,728 46.7 47.0 21,230 52.9 53.0 49.8

Galway West 19,643 45.8 42.0 23,011 53.7 58.0 50.0

Kerry North 11,306 40.2 39.5 16,702 59.4 39.5 51.3

Kerry South 11,569 42.4 44.9 15,571 57.1 55.1 53.1

Kildare North 20,045 54.4 49.3 16,653 45.2 50.7 51.5

Kildare South 13,470 48.4 47.7 14,308 51.4 52.3 48.7

Laois/Offaly 31,786 55.8 48.6 24,963 43.8 51.4 54.3

Limerick East 18,085 45.8 46.6 21,191 53.7 53.4 51.4

Limerick West 13,318 44.5 49.1 16,511 55.1 50.9 51.8

Longford/Westmeath 19,371 46.1 45.8 22,502 53.5 54.2 51.4

Louth 18,586 41.7 46.6 25,811 57.9 53.4 53.4

Mayo 18,624 38.1 44.3 30,001 61.4 55.7 51.3

Meath East 17,340 50.8 48.0 16,703 48.9 52.0 50.6

Meath West 14,442 44.3 47.8 18,028 55.3 52.2 51.9

Roscommon/South Leitrim 15,429 45.4 46.7 18,402 54.2 53.3 56.9

Sligo/North Leitrim 12,602 43.1 44.8 16,496 56.4 55.2 52.6

Tipperary North 16,235 49.6 49.4 16,367 50.0 49.4 58.5

Tipperary South 13,853 46.6 48.6 15,755 52.9 51.4 55.4

Waterford 17,502 45.5 48.2 20,812 54.1 51.8 53.4

Wexford 23,371 43.8 48.7 29,793 55.8 51.3 52.8

Wicklow 25,936 49.6 46.2 26,130 50.0 53.8 60.8

Total 752,451 46.4 46.1 862,415 53.2 53.9 53.1

On BBC Newshour - Patricia McKenna of the Green Party in Ireland, and the Swedish Foreign Minister, Carl Bilt;

To paraphrase:

McKenna said Barroso failed to understand the key reasons why people voted 'No". The arrogance and contempt shown for the voice of the people throughout Europe with Barroso forging ahead when he knows this treaty can't be ratified without the agreement of all 27 members and the Irish people had already said "No". This shows contempt for the voice of the people, and reflects the project itself, and how it came about. After the French and Dutch had voted "No" they reformulated it and put it out again without giving people a voice.

Carl Bilt responded by accusing McKenna of showing contempt for the decisions of all the other European peoples and their process of ratification. "Ireland has its voice" he said, "but don't deny Sweden and other European countries their voice". "We have the right to take our decisions under the procedures that we have decided."

McKenna responded that polls have shown that over seventy five percent of citizens of member states would like a vote but were denied it, and as Sarkozy said, the only reason for denying the French a vote again was because they would say "No". So you clearly have a project being forged ahead without the consent of the people.

www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/

So what do you think? Is the EU democratic?

I'm not ignoring this question - I just want to take my time in replying. However, I would like you to expand on your views TLJ. You seem to be well informed regarding the EU, and I would appreciate a rational commentary on these proposals with emphasis on why referenda were not the "procedure" of choice to poll the citizens of the E.U on this issue?