Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "animal husbandry," doesn't it?

LoL - I guess what the English say about Scots must be true - Baaaa!

thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Excl...alf-chimp.4028970.jp
'humanzee'

Jaimekens wrote:
thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Excl...alf-chimp.4028970.jp
'humanzee'



Hiya Jamekens

I read the article. Hm. I'd best not say too much or I'll be accused of being hysterical again about science but one of the quotes from a scientists sums most of them up for me.

"I share their squeamishness and unease, but I'm not sure that unease can be expressed in terms of an ethical principle."

You got that? He isn't sure about what ethical principle is being breached by creating a being by inseminating chimps with human sperm. Says it all doesn't it? And we're meant to trust these guys?

Clare wrote:
Jaimekens wrote:
thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Excl...alf-chimp.4028970.jp
'humanzee'



Hiya Jamekens

I read the article. Hm. I'd best not say too much or I'll be accused of being hysterical again about science but one of the quotes from a scientists sums most of them up for me.

"I share their squeamishness and unease, but I'm not sure that unease can be expressed in terms of an ethical principle."

You got that? He isn't sure about what ethical principle is being breached by creating a being by inseminating chimps with human sperm. Says it all doesn't it? And we're meant to trust these guys?Its nothing to do with ethics for those involved in this proposal Clare. Further, what useful purpose can such a procedure be for? Certainly not for the chimp or its issue.

Clare wrote:
Jaimekens wrote:
thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Excl...alf-chimp.4028970.jp
'humanzee'



Hiya Jamekens

I read the article. Hm. I'd best not say too much or I'll be accused of being hysterical again about science but one of the quotes from a scientists sums most of them up for me.

"I share their squeamishness and unease, but I'm not sure that unease can be expressed in terms of an ethical principle."

You got that? He isn't sure about what ethical principle is being breached by creating a being by inseminating chimps with human sperm. Says it all doesn't it? And we're meant to trust these guys?



Hi Clare - what's to say? They must think there's a buck in it for them somewhere. Ethics? Morality? Quaint!

I am sorry I missed this debate, particularly as I have just launched petitions on this very subject on Scottish Parliament Web site.

The first thing I would like to deal with is the misconception that we catholics are ruled by priest, dogma, cardinals, or any silly old traditions.
If you want to prove or disprove these issues come to a service.

We do still have much pomp and ceremony which for most of us is a comforting succession of tradition, personally I love it.

But you really don't have to be involved in it as a catholic the choice is yours.

You don't get thrown out of the cathedral for not quoting the hail mary word perfect or not knowing your creed word for word we are told we are their to worship God not the church or priest or our traditions.

Have you never given any thought of how free the world is today how could any priest from the pulpit make you believe something that you do not want to believe, again the choice is yours.

My views on using embryos for research come from my absolute abhorrence at the thought of using live humans even at the beginning of life. If anyone throws at me the saying, prove this is no more than a collection of cells, I will return with prove it is not.

It is the catholic belief and it is mine ( I am to independent not to look for myself ) that this little collection of cells is the very beginning of life. If it is not then tell me when God adds the soul is it at eight weeks or ten maybe, or is it after the 24 weeks gestation up to which date live babies are killed and pulled from the womb in little bits of arms legs etc.

I will make the point that not one other family within my organisation that I know of are catholic, it does not come up in our meetings, but they all are sensitive thinking people and find both subjects, the use of live embryos and the joining of human and animal embryos and the making of monsters who according to science will have no rights either as humans or animals.

If you read the actual bill you may understand our fear because this newly convened "Authority" will have the power to change any of the bill according to the licence it will give to individual researchers. This means that these hybrids could be kept longer than fourteen days or implanted into animal or human.
So our so called scaremongering is very real indeed for the future of Scotland.

Hi Lydia, welcome to the debate on this issue, which as you will have noticed, has been going on for a while here on Scotsgait.

Like you I am catholic but I try not to come from a "catholic" perspective when it is one I think all of us should be concerned with. I know, like you, many of all religions and none who are concerned with what is going on. Sadly the media and some anti-catholic sources are pushing the tale that its a catholic issue and so many automatically oppose it. It is thoroughly depressing.

I recently posted on this thread news of possible plans to implant human sperm in chimps. I included a quote from a scientist who couldn't see the "ethical" dilemma in there and basically I rested my case on scientists when it comes being able to separate their egos and obsession with their own subject from what is morally unthinkable. That is what worries me about the embryo research, the creation of hybrids and all. I have argued for boundaries and lines that cannot be crossed and sadly Keith O'Brien's same argument was buried not because of his message but because he was the head of the Catholic Church in Scotland. I believe if anyone else had said it more people would have listened and the media would have allowed a proper debate. The subject ignited such poison on the Herald sites as I have never witnessed before. The question is why a "quality" newspaper like the Herald permitted its internet space to be hijacked by bigots. The hostility was unbelievable, the facts kicked aside, and the bile thrown again and again at one group in this country who, for many, are clearly a thorn in their flesh. I felt wounded by it. Incredibly wounded and shocked and, truthfully, afraid finally. I am Scottish through and through. I was born here. I am catholic however and for some, and they were predominantly nationalists I have to say, I am not 100% Scottish because of that. I was sitting here at times at the PC stunned by the hatred these people typed (presumably with steam coming out of their ears) at keyboards in various parts of our country. "One Scotland, Many Cultures?" I was saying to myself, but I voted SNP, I'm a nationalist, why do these people hate me? It frightened me as I have never before experienced that sort of thing. It says a lot about the Herald that they will at various times restrict comments on some sites yet on this it was happy to allow a free for all and permit posts to stand that do not belong on any decent newspaper site.

I do facts when I express views and my religion becomes almost irrelevant if I can put it that way because on nearly all of the issues involved the facts and the truth say it all. I have many non-religious friends, and friends of other religions who share my views because of the moral argument involved and the need for boundaries, especially when it comes to science.

I have to say Lydia that on Scotsgait you will hear opposing views but they will be put to you in a civilised way. The debate gets heated certainly but thank goodness this is not the Herald. I have disagreed vehemently with some and have agreed with other posts of theirs and indeed even learned things from their other posts. Its that sort of site. Its a healthy site and long may that continue.

Clare you are so right

I too have encountered total and very vehement bias against catholics and the catholic religion.
I found the BBC particularly biased against catholics, and many other papers, what can you do I do not have time in a day to pray for them all individually, so I just say a wee prayer after my Hail Mary.
I cannot let other people's lack of open minded thought deter me from my objective and that is to try and make people realise how dangerous this bill is and not just for Scotland. I must say I just feel they are missing out on knowledge than can be quite a comfort by not opening their minds to all people whether religious or not, but that is their problem.
My grandson's best friend is Muslim and the facts that I have learned from that 12 yr old child amaze me.
My best friend is a seventh day Adventist and we are I suppose as close as friends can be.
My sister is a spiritualist in Amsterdam and we could not be closer.
My next door neighbor is Chinese and a lovely lad. On the other side of me I have 2 young people who are totally into saving the planet.

I love and value these people, I cannot aways agree with everything they say, but that does not make it wrong for them. It makes it a different point of view.

You are also right when you say that the people on Scotgait seem different they give strong accounts of their point of view but I can cope with that although I am not very experienced with these sights I believe conversation is truly the spice of life.
Hope to speak to you soon.

Before I had my children I worked as an animal technician, that is a person who looks after animals that are used for research. My education centred round that subject.

I am passionate about the good research can do.
I also recognize their are limits to how far we dare and are still able protect human decency and even animal research.
In my family we have many problems I want to see cures for so much, especially for the children in my family.

Any hybrid produced by crossing an ape with a human being would be very much human, and would be kept in a cage.
I wonder at which age would it be decided that this intelligent ape should be CULLED for its organs.
A fully human child must be about one year sometimes younger.
So the next time anyone thinks this research is ok. That these poor things should be produced, then look into the eyes of the nearest child and imagine that child kept in a cage, put on a slab not a nice little operating theatre and put under anesthetic, that is if they are feeling kind, and its organs harvested. Now imagine that it is your child that will receive an organ from these poor things.
Will they have rights as humans. Will the Court of Human Rights be involved to decide whether they are humans or apes.

it just does not bear thinking about.

The Labour party will not answer even when the request is made under the freedom of information act "Does Gordon Brown or any faction of the Labour Party receive donations from any of the drug companies or any company connected with the using of live embryos or the creation of live embryos"

What does strict supervision mean, does it mean that more people should make sure that the cages are kept clean where these nearly human animals are living.

Already scientists have produced a mixture of cows and humans and managed to keep them alive for three days.

I wonder with this post if anyone really understands what is happening with this research. What is in the process of being created is another species - half ape and half human and if your conscience could cope with such an intelligent being kept in a cage to produce organs for human transplant mine could not.

I believe the Cardinal is a very appropriate person to comment and produce a debate on this subject. he is a science graduate who is a man of seventy and highly educated. He was forced to use very strong language to produce a debate on this subject considering he had tried to bring this to the public attention several times. Not once during the debate have I heard him mention religion. He has continued to bring to the public attention a bill being sneaked through Westminster with undue haste with catastrophic possibilities for the future.
I did not hear anyone else try to bring the debate out in the open all doors were closed to us when we tried.
Considering this was not in the manifesto from the labour party then i believe the public had every right to have this debate.

good on you a man with a thinking cap on

LYDIA REID wrote:The first thing I would like to deal with is the misconception that we catholics are ruled by priest, dogma, cardinals, or any silly old traditions.

Hmm. Unfortunately a great deal of what Catholics choose to believe has been made up by princes of the church e.g. the 1854 declaration that the immaculate conception was dogma by Pius IX.

LYDIA REID wrote:We do still have much pomp and ceremony which for most of us is a comforting succession of tradition, personally I love it.

I like it too, especially the music.

LYDIA REID wrote:this little collection of cells is the very beginning of life.

True

LYDIA REID wrote:If it is not then tell me when God adds the soul is it at eight weeks or ten maybe, or is it after the 24 weeks gestation....

How do you know there IS a god and what is a soul anyway? Why don't chimps have a soul?
I should add that I'm not very keen on abortion unless it's really necessary e.g. rape victims or foetuses with serious defects. It's far better to avoid getting pregnant either by avoiding penetrative sex or using effective contraception.

Levenax wrote:
LYDIA REID wrote:The first thing I would like to deal with is the misconception that we catholics are ruled by priest, dogma, cardinals, or any silly old traditions.

Hmm. Unfortunately a great deal of what Catholics choose to believe has been made up by princes of the church e.g. the 1854 declaration that the immaculate conception was dogma by Pius IX.

LYDIA REID wrote:We do still have much pomp and ceremony which for most of us is a comforting succession of tradition, personally I love it.

I like it too, especially the music.

LYDIA REID wrote:this little collection of cells is the very beginning of life.

True

LYDIA REID wrote:If it is not then tell me when God adds the soul is it at eight weeks or ten maybe, or is it after the 24 weeks gestation....

How do you know there IS a god and what is a soul anyway? Why don't chimps have a soul?
I should add that I'm not very keen on abortion unless it's really necessary e.g. rape victims or foetuses with serious defects. It's far better to avoid getting pregnant either by avoiding penetrative sex or using effective contraception.

See Lydia? I told ya!

So, Lev, where do you stand on the 96% plus of all terminations performed on perfectly healthy babies, some of whom survive the termination process and then have to be left to die by NHS staff? Let's not do "catholics" here Lev, lets do what is happening in our hospitals today? Let's do fact.