Suggestions that parents should face punishment for not having their children vaccinated.

You really should read the BBC HYS on this one.

I have to wonder who paid this pair to come up with this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7392510.stm

More and more parents suffer the consequences when vaccination goes wrong for their child.

A life time of caring for children who are autistic, or so disabled they need total care, will make you less believing when choosing whether or not to vaccinate.
Watching a doctor have his whole career taken to bits in front of his eyes when he dares to speak out against a vaccine should be proof enough that the drug companies behind these vaccines are powerful people with no intention of ever allowing anything derogatory said about their particular vaccine.

In my twelve year old Grandson's class they all got their MMR at the same time from the same health centre.
Half of those children developed speech problems.
One little girl still has epilepsy and a very serious case of epilepsy.
I am sure we have all heard of the mother who has had three Autistic children all developing normally until MMR.
The list of damaged children goes on and still the drug companies control the knowledge and do not allow true research into the fact that some children will have problems.
Not another child in my ken will have MMR they will all somehow have the single jabs.

Let them try to force this on any of mine.

I agree. They should inform, but enforcement is going too far. The nanny state is one thing, but this is coercion.

It makes me wonder how much people in this country will take before they start to grow a backbone and tell these interferons where to get off.

I have some professional background in immunology and infection and I'm not really convinced either way. Andrew Wakefield is suspect and his research, how it was funded and his motives, do need to be thoroughly investigated. Likewise, the multi £B pharma companies need to be looked at very closely too since they have a clear interest in how this dispute pans out. The problem with so called scientific research in the medical field is that so much of it isn't scientific and it's published by medics, many of whom have only a scant knowledge of the science behind their professional practice and no grasp at all of the rigour and discipline required to produce good research. That said, some of the stuff published in the more reputable journals can be quite good although the Lancet's peer review committee may have screwed up big time if they didn't spot the alleged flaws in Wakefield's work. It's acutely embarrassing for a journal like the Lancet to have to disown something they published.
If I had a child at the age where vaccination was required for MM & R I'd arrange to have them administered separately, just in case. MMR vaccine may of course be exonerated in due course. It's always wise to remember that mumps and measles, whilst causing quite minor symptoms in most children, can cause severe problems in a small number of children and leave them permanently handicapped. Rubella infection in a pregnant woman can wreak havoc with the foetus, so weigh the risks carefully when considering what to do for the best. Interestingly, we had a cat who went doolally after her vaccinations.

Good advice Levenax!

Viv wrote:
I agree. They should inform, but enforcement is going too far. The nanny state is one thing, but this is coercion.

It makes me wonder how much people in this country will take before they start to grow a backbone and tell these interferons where to get off.

I believe this statement was released as are many others to test the water. To see if this could or would be a popular issue for Gordon Brown to follow.

You can be sure the pressure from the drug companies that produce these vaccines will be in there somewhere. This country under a Labour Government is run by the companies that can donate most to the ruling party.

It is quite a sinister thought that we could go back to the late 1800s early 1900s when parents were taken to court and could be sent to prison if they did not pay to have there child vaccinated against smallpox. Particularly when many of the children died from the vaccine.

Levenax wrote:
I have some professional background in immunology and infection and I'm not really convinced either way. Andrew Wakefield is suspect and his research, how it was funded and his motives, do need to be thoroughly investigated. Likewise, the multi £B pharma companies need to be looked at very closely too since they have a clear interest in how this dispute pans out. The problem with so called scientific research in the medical field is that so much of it isn't scientific and it's published by medics, many of whom have only a scant knowledge of the science behind their professional practice and no grasp at all of the rigour and discipline required to produce good research. That said, some of the stuff published in the more reputable journals can be quite good although the Lancet's peer review committee may have screwed up big time if they didn't spot the alleged flaws in Wakefield's work. It's acutely embarrassing for a journal like the Lancet to have to disown something they published.
If I had a child at the age where vaccination was required for MM & R I'd arrange to have them administered separately, just in case. MMR vaccine may of course be exonerated in due course. It's always wise to remember that mumps and measles, whilst causing quite minor symptoms in most children, can cause severe problems in a small number of children and leave them permanently handicapped. Rubella infection in a pregnant woman can wreak havoc with the foetus, so weigh the risks carefully when considering what to do for the best. Interestingly, we had a cat who went doolally after her vaccinations.

Before answering this post i tried to get from one of our guys the link to the research carried out in other countries which shows MMR to be suspect indeed. Like Wakefield these people had their career ruined.

If I remember correctly the Lancet have their own team to judge whether research is indeed balanced before allowing publication. The mind boggles at what pressure was put on the Lancet. I believe it must have taken a fair bit of courage for that editor to publish, interesting though that we do not hear what happened to the editor.

Because of lack of funding Dr Wakefield with the permission of the parents who pushed him to do this research, took blood samples from children at a birthday party. That is the reason he is before the GMC. This group of parents all have autistic children resulting from MMR injections.
I do not believe we will ever get true research into MMR. The best we can hope for is that someone within the drug companies will correct this vaccine before long.

Your point about mumps measles and rubella are all genuine points.
Pregnant mothers catching rubella are not in danger but the fetus stand a good chance of being brain damaged or deformed.
Mumps can cause boys to be infertile.
I would not argue that their is a good case for these vaccines but I would want to truthfully compare the figures of children damaged by MMR against figures of children damaged by childhood illness.

Too much evidence exists that for instance autism is linked to this vaccine.

I watch one of ours, a baby of eleven months and I know we all brag about our own but he is just so bright. His command of language for this age amazes everyone. His powers of reasoning are phenomenal. Other children if they are fed up in someones house would not understand why, they would just cry, this wee person gets his shoes and waves bye bye.
This is the progress that these parents talk of when they state "my child was developing normally" or above normal and within days of having the MMR they regressed into a world of there own, would not communicate and would not cuddle.
I look at the other baby in the family and she too is a bright wee thing she is now seven months, I look after her a lot and the thought that all this might disappear in her and be replaced with what must seem like a nightmare for a parent just terrifies me.

Parents are talking of a link to excema and asthma and one of our older children has that and it did start after MMR.

What is needed is a group of researcher preferably some from every country with good funding to do independent research unaffected by the drug companies.

scunnert thank you

Wakefield and his wholly flawed opinion, and its publication, was in my view a crime. Yes a crime. It effectively stopped other more credible research from being viewed as having the credibility they deserved, let alone the fallout of unimmunised children who died or were permanently harmed by not having MMR.
I am old enough to have been infected with fatal infections in my early school years, such as Diptheria, Scarlet fever, mumps, whooping cough, measles and was lucky to have survived relatively unscathed. Diptheria was touch and go for me I must add.
One of my friends died from disease, another was crippled with Polio. Today its very different, we haven't experienced any of these killer diseases, and have not had to live with such memories as I had of my baby sister, in our mother's arms, having a major Whooping fit and wondering if she would ever breathe again, a frightening experience that today is preventable along with the ones I had as a child.
Preventable disease and its prevention needs to be taken seriously, and not rubbished as has happened with uninformed or damaging opinion.

DoricMan wrote:
Wakefield and his wholly flawed opinion, and its publication, was in my view a crime. Yes a crime. It effectively stopped other more credible research from being viewed as having the credibility they deserved, let alone the fallout of unimmunised children who died or were permanently harmed by not having MMR.
I am old enough to have been infected with fatal infections in my early school years, such as Diptheria, Scarlet fever, mumps, whooping cough, measles and was lucky to have survived relatively unscathed. Diptheria was touch and go for me I must add.
One of my friends died from disease, another was crippled with Polio. Today its very different, we haven't experienced any of these killer diseases, and have not had to live with such memories as I had of my baby sister, in our mother's arms, having a major Whooping fit and wondering if she would ever breathe again, a frightening experience that today is preventable along with the ones I had as a child.
Preventable disease and its prevention needs to be taken seriously, and not rubbished as has happened with uninformed or damaging opinion.

doricman
No one would deny the want for good research but do you really believe that it will happen. Their is no way in this world that the drug companies will allow this to happen. The results of some of these diseases are terrible but so are the consequences for parents of children who are at risk from MMR. Do you really believe that it is an easy life, having a whole life lived looking after a damaged child. Then wondering should I kill them before I die as no one else is around to look after them when I die. That is reality for parents of damaged children.

If a vaccine is safe then it is wonderful it changes life for many and can save many. When it is flawed as I believe the MMR vaccine is flawed then they have no right to market this when it is proven to hurt even if only a few get hurt. it is not the choice of the scientist that it will be diphtheria you die from or if instead you will live your life damaged.

LYDIA REID wrote:
DoricMan wrote:
Wakefield and his wholly flawed opinion, and its publication, was in my view a crime. Yes a crime. It effectively stopped other more credible research from being viewed as having the credibility they deserved, let alone the fallout of unimmunised children who died or were permanently harmed by not having MMR.
I am old enough to have been infected with fatal infections in my early school years, such as Diptheria, Scarlet fever, mumps, whooping cough, measles and was lucky to have survived relatively unscathed. Diptheria was touch and go for me I must add.
One of my friends died from disease, another was crippled with Polio. Today its very different, we haven't experienced any of these killer diseases, and have not had to live with such memories as I had of my baby sister, in our mother's arms, having a major Whooping fit and wondering if she would ever breathe again, a frightening experience that today is preventable along with the ones I had as a child.
Preventable disease and its prevention needs to be taken seriously, and not rubbished as has happened with uninformed or damaging opinion.

doricman
No one would deny the want for good research but do you really believe that it will happen. Their is no way in this world that the drug companies will allow this to happen. The results of some of these diseases are terrible but so are the consequences for parents of children who are at risk from MMR. Do you really believe that it is an easy life, having a whole life lived looking after a damaged child. Then wondering should I kill them before I die as no one else is around to look after them when I die. That is reality for parents of damaged children.

If a vaccine is safe then it is wonderful it changes life for many and can save many. When it is flawed as I believe the MMR vaccine is flawed then they have no right to market this when it is proven to hurt even if only a few get hurt. it is not the choice of the scientist that it will be diphtheria you die from or if instead you will live your life damaged.Yes we want, not only good world wide research, and its findings concerning the safety of clinically proven vaccines, as is this case for MMR.
One needless death of an innocent child by not being properly vaccinated is something I cannot comprehend, or accept. My views are totally at odds with yours Lydia and were formed from my early experiences of fatal and crippling disease. How I wish my childhood friends, and myself, had access to today's medical advances, but I am here as their advocate, hopefully a worthy one.

You're right DM. Look at the infant mortality in parts of the world where vaccination is rare. We need to do all we can to make sure that vaccines are safe and efficacious but people need to realise that vaccines only work when there is sufficient uptake to provide herd immunity. IMO people have a duty to take advantage of vaccines when they are shown to be safe. That said there is some doubt about the safety of MMR so use single vaccines instead if your worried about it because it's impoertant that children are protected from MM & R.
BTW the new vaccine against HPV seems like a great idea. I think it's odd that some people think that it's use will encourage promiscuity.

DoricMan wrote:
LYDIA REID wrote:
DoricMan wrote:
Wakefield and his wholly flawed opinion, and its publication, was in my view a crime. Yes a crime. It effectively stopped other more credible research from being viewed as having the credibility they deserved, let alone the fallout of unimmunised children who died or were permanently harmed by not having MMR.
I am old enough to have been infected with fatal infections in my early school years, such as Diptheria, Scarlet fever, mumps, whooping cough, measles and was lucky to have survived relatively unscathed. Diptheria was touch and go for me I must add.
One of my friends died from disease, another was crippled with Polio. Today its very different, we haven't experienced any of these killer diseases, and have not had to live with such memories as I had of my baby sister, in our mother's arms, having a major Whooping fit and wondering if she would ever breathe again, a frightening experience that today is preventable along with the ones I had as a child.
Preventable disease and its prevention needs to be taken seriously, and not rubbished as has happened with uninformed or damaging opinion.

doricman
No one would deny the want for good research but do you really believe that it will happen. Their is no way in this world that the drug companies will allow this to happen. The results of some of these diseases are terrible but so are the consequences for parents of children who are at risk from MMR. Do you really believe that it is an easy life, having a whole life lived looking after a damaged child. Then wondering should I kill them before I die as no one else is around to look after them when I die. That is reality for parents of damaged children.

If a vaccine is safe then it is wonderful it changes life for many and can save many. When it is flawed as I believe the MMR vaccine is flawed then they have no right to market this when it is proven to hurt even if only a few get hurt. it is not the choice of the scientist that it will be diphtheria you die from or if instead you will live your life damaged.Yes we want, not only good world wide research, and its findings concerning the safety of clinically proven vaccines, as is this case for MMR.


One needless death of an innocent child by not being properly vaccinated is something I cannot comprehend, or accept.
My views are totally at odds with yours Lydia and were formed from my early experiences of fatal and crippling disease. How I wish my childhood friends, and myself, had access to today's medical advances, but I am here as their advocate, hopefully a worthy one.

I wonder if you would say that if you were the parent of a child who maybe like one of ours is too bright for their age astounding everyone with the things they can accomplish and then you watch that disappear before your eyes. You watch all this hope for the future replaced by a child that is completely shut into their own world and may very well be aggressive and incontinent and unrecognisable as the child you started out with.

That is the reality of autism, but probably not the worst scenario for vaccine damaged children, some are no better than vegetables totally dependant on their parents.

Vaccines which save lives are indeed something we should go down on our knees and thank the scientists for. When they are needlessly given in a triple dose to save money. When they contain preservatives that damage children. The scientist and the ruling government of that day should go to prison because this is one of the worst forms of assault.

My aunt died from one of the diseases you speak of and my mother often spoke of her of her illness and her death and the devastation it caused in the family. Of course this was heartbreaking and of course we want this to end but what do you choose death from diphtheria or living death from a vaccine. Especially when it is unnecessary when all this could be different if the children were given the three doses separately.

Levenax wrote:
You're right DM. Look at the infant mortality in parts of the world where vaccination is rare. We need to do all we can to make sure that vaccines are safe and efficacious but people need to realise that vaccines only work when there is sufficient uptake to provide herd immunity. IMO people have a duty to take advantage of vaccines when they are shown to be safe. That said there is some doubt about the safety of MMR so use single vaccines instead if your worried about it because it's important that children are protected from MM & R.
BTW the new vaccine against HPV seems like a great idea. I think it's odd that some people think that it's use will encourage promiscuity.

Easily Said if you can afford the single doses which I thoroughly approve of as do most parents. I also agree with the herd immunity theory. I wonder though how does a single parent cope. Do they look at their child and say well it is my social responsibility to have you immunised and i am sorry if both our lives are ruined if you then are dyslexic autistic have eczema asthma or you end up as a vegetable.

I would sell my shoes to get the single doses for any of mine but tell me how for instance very poor families cope or single parents cope.

I think the thoughts about the HPV vaccine is simply the horror of accepting your twelve year old daughter needs protecting at that age because she may have consensual sex.

It's really only the educated classes who know about the controversy behind MMR triple vaccine and many of them have the means should they so choose to get single dose vaccines either by paying for it privately or making a pest of themselves to their GP. The poor probably don't know any better and just do what the health visitor says or maybe even don't bother with that and do nothing. Unfortunately their health inequality is then made even worse with possibly, on one hand, more vaccine damaged children or, on the other, children crippled with measles or mumps or years later babies born damaged to non immune girls. Whatever, it's a public health disaster.

I can't imagine why even the stupidest of people could imagine that giving a girl a vaccine that will protect her from a horrible disease in later life could turn her into a crazed teenage sexpot. It seems that it's mostly parents who send their kids to religious schools who have denied their daughters the chance of avoiding cervical cancer. Surprised? No, I'm not either.