dws wrote:
TLJ wrote:
Monty Python was 30+ years ago. I had thought we'd matured and now showed respect for other peoples' nationalities and sexualities.

Clearly I was wrong.

Partly, Jambo, partly.

Would you be offended if someone called you "Jock" as a generic term for a Scot, if they didn't know your name?

I've seen my job go from bloody Jurassic (when I joined, "if you don't like it, F.Off!!" through the pink and fluffy stage (where no-one speaks for fear of offending anybody's sensibilities if they happen to be listening) to the stage we are at now (Limbo - what can I say to you without you taking offence, even if I don't mean to give offence?)

Humour can be used as a defence mechanism. Indeed, I've heard some really sick statements which in normal company would be truly out of place.

But

If you're scraping body parts up, and its a coping mechanism...is it wrong?

I wouldn't call German people Krauts, French Frogs or Arabs Rag-heads, but I don't condemn. I've used some choice language in my time and some of it I'm not proud of, but it wasn't racial hatred it wasn't deliberately inflammatory.

It's a pressure vent. If you can't curse under pressure, what's left?

Can I say that we can all have disagreements on here but in general I find the language used very respectful, although the debate is at times heated, but that's how it should be on important issues. Its healthy.

I recently witnessed another side to Scotsgait during Lydia's recent very difficult week where I believe most, if not all, of us were absolutely rooting for that little child and felt his loss acutely. I sensed Lydia took great comfort from our words of consolation and was myself deeply moved by that single episode which we all sort of shared in. I suspect I wasn't alone. I think for such a thing to happen takes a group of very decent people and I think that's what Scotsgait is. I respect all of you.

So, to return to the subject of language, while I am not completely comfortable with the names some have for the French or the Germans, and I hate, loathe and detest anyone referring to me as a "Jock" I can live with it for on other forums I haven't come across anything like we have here on Scotsgait. The appalling level of debate, the personal abuse, the vulgar language, the vicious attacks and vendettas and other vile features provided daily on forum sites belonging to "quality" papers like the Herald only make me more grateful for what we have here. Long may that continue.

Clare wrote:
.....I hate, loathe and detest anyone referring to me as a "Jock" I can live with it for on other forums I haven't come across anything like we have here on Scotsgait. The appalling level of debate, the personal abuse, the vulgar language, the vicious attacks and vendettas and other vile features provided daily on forum sites belonging to "quality" papers like the Herald only make me more grateful for what we have here. Long may that continue.

Why does "Jock" bother you? Many jocular (oh dear) names are taken from what folk imagine an archetype of the denizen of the country might be called like of course Jock, or Paddy or Fritz or Stavros or Jomo etc. I don't think most people take it ill although I understand that you, being of a female persuasion, might not like Jock very much. Jockette, Jockina, Jockess, hmm, not quite right, eh?
I agree about the Herald Forum though on my occasional visits to the Hootsmon it doesn't seem to be so bad. Perhaps less sectarian, being of the east.
The old BBC Soapbox could get a bit heated although some of it was just so grotesque it was funny.

From Japantimes:
Tuesday, June 17, 2008

A vanishing Europe and lifestyle

Europeans will see the dismantling of their welfare states and social security systems, and the cherished "European model" of pensions, health care and unemployment benefits, being replaced by the despised and widely feared "American model." This is not, needless to say, because Europeans crave the rigors of America's less cosseted social conditions, but because it's the only way that European governments will be able to stay afloat financially.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20080617a1.html

Royal Navy warships may form part of EU fleet
By James Kirkup, Political Correspondent
Last Updated: 8:52PM BST 17/06/2008

Royal Navy vessels could take part in a new “European Union fleet” being planned by France.



An artist's impression of one of the navy's new carriers
The French proposal would see a British aircraft carrier placed at the heart of a new EU naval group.

The prospect of such close co-operation between two navies whose clashes include the Battle of Trafalgar is likely to outrage eurosceptics and is already said to have caused concern among British admirals.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2147016/Royal-Navy-warships-may-form-part-of-EU-fleet.html

scunnert wrote:
Royal Navy warships may form part of EU fleet
By James Kirkup, Political Correspondent
Last Updated: 8:52PM BST 17/06/2008

Royal Navy vessels could take part in a new “European Union fleet” being planned by France.

The prospect of such close co-operation between two navies whose clashes include the Battle of Trafalgar is likely to outrage eurosceptics and is already said to have caused concern among British admirals.
I am sure that we will have to co-operate with our neighboring allies, such as the French if we are to face growing threats from all those we once enslaved or ruled in our past.
This is a proposal that should, at least, be explored.

DoricMan wrote:
scunnert wrote:
Royal Navy warships may form part of EU fleet
By James Kirkup, Political Correspondent
Last Updated: 8:52PM BST 17/06/2008

Royal Navy vessels could take part in a new “European Union fleet” being planned by France.

The prospect of such close co-operation between two navies whose clashes include the Battle of Trafalgar is likely to outrage eurosceptics and is already said to have caused concern among British admirals.
I am sure that we will have to co-operate with our neighboring allies, such as the French if we are to face growing threats from all those we once enslaved or ruled in our past.
This is a proposal that should, at least, be explored.

Hi Doricman
Why? We are currently all members of the UN as independent countries. I am no Euro-sceptic but I would say the EU has more to worry about right now than starting to merge our military forces. They don't have a mandate to do that for one thing.

Clare wrote:
DoricMan wrote:
scunnert wrote:
Royal Navy warships may form part of EU fleet
By James Kirkup, Political Correspondent
Last Updated: 8:52PM BST 17/06/2008

Royal Navy vessels could take part in a new “European Union fleet” being planned by France.

The prospect of such close co-operation between two navies whose clashes include the Battle of Trafalgar is likely to outrage eurosceptics and is already said to have caused concern among British admirals.
I am sure that we will have to co-operate with our neighboring allies, such as the French if we are to face growing threats from all those we once enslaved or ruled in our past.
This is a proposal that should, at least, be explored.

Hi Doricman
Why? We are currently all members of the UN as independent countries. I am no Euro-sceptic but I would say the EU has more to worry about right now than starting to merge our military forces. They don't have a mandate to do that for one thing. Hello Clare.
I am pointing out that problems on our Euro doorstep are better managed in co-operation with competent neighbours. I worked in the past with French and Germans, in similar areas of mutual interest, and have no problem in such co-operative matters in the future.

DoricMan wrote:
[/quote]I am sure that we will have to co-operate with our neighboring allies, such as the French if we are to face growing threats from all those we once enslaved or ruled in our past.
This is a proposal that should, at least, be explored.[/quote]

Nothing new here Doric,in this part of the world (Central Med) the EU fleet has been in operation for some time now, their task being mainly anti immigration and drug patrols.
At the moment the navies of Italy, Germany, Malta, and France are operating under instructions from the EU Frontex HQ which is based in Warsaw.

How many of us really want Scotland to be part of a United States of Europe?

scunnert wrote:
How many of us really want Scotland to be part of a United States of Europe?

A USE is a long, long, long way away. Not in my lifetime nor in yours. Nor, I suspect, in my great-great-grandchildren's. However future generations wish to work politically is for them to decide.

The EU is about joint decision making on issues which (a) make the single market single through common rules and/or (b) which require international co-operation.

TLJ wrote:
scunnert wrote:
How many of us really want Scotland to be part of a United States of Europe?

A USE is a long, long, long way away. Not in my lifetime nor in yours. Nor, I suspect, in my great-great-grandchildren's. However future generations wish to work politically is for them to decide.

The EU is about joint decision making on issues which (a) make the single market single through common rules and/or (b) which require international co-operation.I agree TLJ. Let us co-operate with our neighbours, when it is advisable, and disengage when the task is finished. This then ensures that we remain independent.

DoricMan wrote:
Clare wrote:
DoricMan wrote:
scunnert wrote:
Royal Navy warships may form part of EU fleet
By James Kirkup, Political Correspondent
Last Updated: 8:52PM BST 17/06/2008

Royal Navy vessels could take part in a new “European Union fleet” being planned by France.

The prospect of such close co-operation between two navies whose clashes include the Battle of Trafalgar is likely to outrage eurosceptics and is already said to have caused concern among British admirals.
I am sure that we will have to co-operate with our neighboring allies, such as the French if we are to face growing threats from all those we once enslaved or ruled in our past.
This is a proposal that should, at least, be explored.

Hi Doricman
Why? We are currently all members of the UN as independent countries. I am no Euro-sceptic but I would say the EU has more to worry about right now than starting to merge our military forces. They don't have a mandate to do that for one thing. Hello Clare.
I am pointing out that problems on our Euro doorstep are better managed in co-operation with competent neighbours. I worked in the past with French and Germans, in similar areas of mutual interest, and have no problem in such co-operative matters in the future.

Hi again Doricman
I have no problem either with neighbourly co operation. But I'd like this country to have its own voice, you know? With the other European countries obviously. I don't want that to change because our identities are important as individual countries. I think Europe is a real mess right now particularly when it comes to people moving all over the place and I think the EU needs to set out clear plans on that issue. They have ignored it for more than a decade now since the wall came down.

In this country right now we are almost certainly facing a full blown recession unless the government acts. Right now my main concerns are interest rates and fuel prices and how I'm going to cope with major rises in those major outgoings in my budget. Energy suppliers are announcing today 40% rises in gas and electricity. I'm sorry, I want the Government to tell them right now they are not doing it to us again! Their profits were announced earlier this year after the two major hikes they passed on to us last year and now another 40%? I am very, very angry about that and I KNOW Brown can get involved there. These companies are taking the you know what and it can't go on. I'm on my own, I have a mortgage and I am sick and tired of hearing about "poor families" unable to afford heating and how we must help them. Sorry again, I'm out working and paying my way and I want the government to kick ass at the fuel companies and I want recognition too because I am sick of "helping out" the poor with my pigging taxes while, when it comes to me, I'm expected to just get on with it. So really, sod Lisbon, sod Europe for the moment and lets get our domestic mess sorted.

It's a little off topic (sorry TLJ) but Clares post reminded me of thisI pushed the button and elected him to office and a
He pushed the button and he dropped the bomb
You pushed the button and could watch in on the television
Those m****rf*****s didn't last too long

I'm sick of hearing about the have and have not's
Have some personal accountability
The biggest problem with the way that we are doing things is
The more we let you have the less that I'll be keeping for me

Well I use to stand for something
Well I'm on my hands and knees
Turning in my god for this one
and he signs his name with a capital G

Don't give a sh*t about the temperature in Guatemala
Don't really see what all the fuss is about
Ain't gonna worry about no future generations
And I'm sure somebody's gonna figure it out

Don't try to tell me that some power can corrupt a person
You hadn't had enough to know what its like
Your only angry cause you wish you were in my position
Now nod your head cause you know that I'm right..alright!

Well I use to stand for something
But forgot what that could be
Theres a lot of me inside you
Maybe your afraid to see

Well I use to stand for something
Well I'm on my hands and knees
Turning in my god for this one
and he signs his name with a capital G


Will post the video on Ceol.

Clare wrote:
DoricMan wrote:
Clare wrote:
DoricMan wrote:
scunnert wrote:
Royal Navy warships may form part of EU fleet
By James Kirkup, Political Correspondent
Last Updated: 8:52PM BST 17/06/2008

Royal Navy vessels could take part in a new “European Union fleet” being planned by France.

The prospect of such close co-operation between two navies whose clashes include the Battle of Trafalgar is likely to outrage eurosceptics and is already said to have caused concern among British admirals.
I am sure that we will have to co-operate with our neighboring allies, such as the French if we are to face growing threats from all those we once enslaved or ruled in our past.
This is a proposal that should, at least, be explored.

Hi Doricman
Why? We are currently all members of the UN as independent countries. I am no Euro-sceptic but I would say the EU has more to worry about right now than starting to merge our military forces. They don't have a mandate to do that for one thing. Hello Clare.
I am pointing out that problems on our Euro doorstep are better managed in co-operation with competent neighbours. I worked in the past with French and Germans, in similar areas of mutual interest, and have no problem in such co-operative matters in the future.

Hi again Doricman
I have no problem either with neighbourly co operation. But I'd like this country to have its own voice, you know? With the other European countries obviously. I don't want that to change because our identities are important as individual countries. I think Europe is a real mess right now particularly when it comes to people moving all over the place and I think the EU needs to set out clear plans on that issue. They have ignored it for more than a decade now since the wall came down.

In this country right now we are almost certainly facing a full blown recession unless the government acts. Right now my main concerns are interest rates and fuel prices and how I'm going to cope with major rises in those major outgoings in my budget. Energy suppliers are announcing today 40% rises in gas and electricity. I'm sorry, I want the Government to tell them right now they are not doing it to us again! Their profits were announced earlier this year after the two major hikes they passed on to us last year and now another 40%? I am very, very angry about that and I KNOW Brown can get involved there. These companies are taking the you know what and it can't go on. I'm on my own, I have a mortgage and I am sick and tired of hearing about "poor families" unable to afford heating and how we must help them. Sorry again, I'm out working and paying my way and I want the government to kick ass at the fuel companies and I want recognition too because I am sick of "helping out" the poor with my pigging taxes while, when it comes to me, I'm expected to just get on with it. So really, sod Lisbon, sod Europe for the moment and lets get our domestic mess sorted.I agree with preserving our identity and working towards its enhancement Clare.
As for the EU and the UN my view is that they are both mess' in progress, and have much work to prove their worth to souls such as me.
Our problems with affording a reasonable standard of living for the majority of our people is a function of plunder and greed in markets, Fat Cats and the rest, and there is nothing we can do about it.
Sorry to be so dismal, now time to cheer up.

TLJ wrote:
The EU needs reformed and the Treaty would have brought much needed change to the EU's institutions and it's back to the drawing board which is a shame because there's been so much crap thrown about regarding Lisbon.

The status quo is a no-no because the EU and its 27 (soon to be 29) Member States cannot function efficiently as it is currently organised. The UK leaving the EU is also a no-no (even under the Tories).

So, my question to those who are anti-Lisbon, given the above, what changes would you advocate instead of Lisbon ?

Honesty and fewer silly laws because they have nothing better to do.